MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 394
(4/22/02 12:01 am) Reply
A Scriptural truth...
One Scripture that modern Evangelicals (or, "Evangelical Arminians" if you will), utterly distain, is Psa. 5:5. "He must be exaggerating," some will think, "what could be so awful about it that would drive them to that despise a text of Sacred Writ?"
Quite simply; It endangers their theological traditions, and they are compelled by their conscience to retain their traditions at nearly any cost, so thinking that their tradition is the Word itself--and what an curious paradox, indeed, that one would be driven by zeal for what they imagined to be the Word, to obscure and disregard the Word itself!
Observe:
Psa. 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. (KJV)
The text says that God hates the workers of iniquity, and that refers to persons; their works are iniquity, but God hates the workers themselves, not merely their works. The old Arminian cliche, that God loves the sinner, but hates the sin, runs in the teeth of this very plain statement of the Word.
But, if God hates some people, that would mean that He doesn't love the "world" (said: "every single individual in the world")--John 3:16, etc., would have to be re-examined: apart from theological traditions; and if God didn't love the "world", then He didn't send His Son to die for all, but for "every believing one" (John 3:16); and if He didn't give His Son to die for all, then not all have the chance to be saved, because all are sinners by the law and need redemption by the Son; and if not all have the chance to be saved, then God is sovereign and man is not--and this would destroy the very fabric of their theology, just as Jeremiah's waistband was destroyed (Jer. 13:1-10).
Thus, they wage war against God's Word in the Psalm, and gnash their teeth at it in empty cavils. No doubt the most distinguished of their arsenal is the charge which is disguised, a poisoned dart, veiled in all piety:
"But that, sir, would make God somewhat less that loving! God could not be said to be omnibenevolent by your teaching, and so you do harm to God's good character and right standing by teaching these infernal things!"
This amounts to nothing more than swallowing a camel while straining out a gnat. "But that no answer!" Indeed, it is, let us examine the objection and make it sure:
When God is said to be "all loving" or, "omnibenevolent" it does not mean "loving to all"; just as we say that God is "omnipotent" or "all powerful" we do not mean that God is able to lie, or die, or engage in logical absurdities (creating rocks to heavy to lift, etc.), we mean that God is the source and original (originator) of all power, but that He acts according to His own immutable nature, that there is no external power exerted on His own self--so, when we say "omnibenevolent" we do not mean that He is equally loving to all, or lovingly disposed towards all; we mean that He is the source and original of all love.
We love him because He first loved us, so the Apostle tells us that this is the true definition of love--that it involves God, alone, as its ultimate source (1 John 4:9-10).
So then, when we acknowledge, with that most Holy Word; "hatest all workers of iniquity"; we do not thereby impugn God's character or right standing, because we are not limiting the quality of God's love--He is all loving to those He is pleased to display His love towards (for this very same passage tells us that under God's just government of the universe, we should be hated, even dispised for our transgressions and sin against the Holy God)--we are limiting the quantity of God's love, as He Himself has revealed that He has limited it; to those whom He pleases to excuse from justice through the most Gracious pardon of His Son's blood, for no merit that is in them. This is the sumpreme love, which can never fail to accomplish its design, or falter along the way.
Thus, is this cavil in pious clothing become nothing more than a moth-eaten garment (Matt. 16:19-21); and truly, it is the perspective that would attribute God's love to all men, equally, that impugns God's character in the matter.
Allow me to use the analogy of an old Puritan to demonstrate what I mean;
To say that God loves all men, indiscreetly, is to say that God's love is like a great, wide bridge running over a mighty river (this man using the river as a picture of sin), yet this bridge only goes halfway across, it is so wide as to fit all people, yet it is of no effect to carry them to their destination! While, the same illustrator went on to say, the Biblical view is like a narrow bridge, which, though its designer intended it for a smaller number, carries them safely across the waters.
This analogy is very well stated to bring out just what is at stake by the rejection of the Biblical concept that God indeed, hates some people, and that justly. Yet, not only does denying God's sovereignty in choosing whom He will display His love towards, have this consequence, it has others, yet more dubious; if God is constrained to love all, then what must be the view of God regarding His treatment of sinners? Nothing else than the view that asserts that God would be unjust if He did not show His love to all, because that all are owed that right. But to speak in this way is nothing more than vanity.
But man is vain, and is not at all contented that God has chosen to love any one rebellious sinner, despite all their just deserts, man will storm the towers and demand the same for all men. Lament as they will in their futile attempts, God is proved just when all is said and done, and will prevail when He judges (Rom. 3:4).
Yet worse; the objection will be heard that God is free to exercise His love on whom He will, but simply has greater love to those, than to the rest, while all are truly loved to some degree. Is God then a made a respecter of persons in the attempt to allot His love to all? Why does He love some more? For their faith or forseen works, it must be answered, for if it was God's own choice, then that would mean some would be denied this special love who had not been chosen freely to receive it. But if God, then, loves some more, because of something that is in them, He is made to be a respecter of persons; and this the Word expressly denies.
Does God therefore love all, some more than the rest?--put away the idle clamour; what does the Word say?--"hatest all workers of iniquity", and so it will stand.
Our passage in the Psalms should offer no burden to the Child of God, or place of shame or fumbling; it is the only place they may turn for true peace and assurance. If God, by an act of sheer Grace and Mercy has chosen to love you, you son or daughter of the Living God, while you deserved nothing but His scorn--His wrath poured out without mixture for all ages--and yet He has regarded you, for nothing that is in you, but of His own good pleasure, as one who should "be saved from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10)--how will He ever let you fall, or turn away His love from you?
Take heart, then, in the full counsel of the Word, and believe it--embrace it--remember your former state and what you deserved, and after all this, fall down on your face and thank the God who has loved and redeemed your soul, for His glory and pleasure, you, who deserved nothing but condemnation and wrath, but have received "of His fullness...and Grace for Grace" (John 1:16).
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life.
If God hated the world, as you suggest, then explain why this passage says He loved the world?
God loves all of us, and that's why He sent His Son, Jesus, to die for our sins.
Jesus' death on the cross was how we gentiles were given the gift of God's Love, the gift of forgiveness by the Blood of the Lamb of God.
God Bless You!
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 397
(4/22/02 7:08 pm) Reply
Re: A Scriptural truth...
I really don't see that I have a burden of explaining John 3:16, I understand it in harmony with the rest of the Bible, if you wish to claim that God loves everyone, you have the burden of showing how that jives with Psalm 5:5, as far as I see things. However, I will explain my view of John 3:16, for the sake of posterity.
"For God loved the world so much..."
Because God loved something called "the world" so much
"...that he gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him..."
So--Gr. ina--a purpose clause; "for this purpose"--"that everyone who believes in him"
"...may not die but have eternal life."
As I see it the "world" in view is the world God sent His Son for in love; "everyone who believes in him" (lit. "every believing one").
Thus, God's love was so great for everyone in the whole world who would believe, that He sent His Son to ensure that all the believing ones would not die but (adversative; "not that, but this") have everlasting life.
The "world" here doesn't mean "every single individual in the world" just like it doesn't in John 7:7 and 1 John 5:19, etc. It is limited by the context to "every believing one."
That's my take on John 3:16, in a nutshell.
I really don't see any other way to reconcile Psa. 5:5 and this passage; how could God love every single individual in the world, and hate some individuals (who work inquity), at the same time?
-J
S.D.G
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 401
(4/23/02 3:26 am) Reply
Re: A Scriptural truth...
I am adding a word-for-word interlinear translation of the Greek text of John 3:16 (Scrivener's Textus Receptus, 1894 [a printing of the original Greek text that the KJV Translators collated and used to translate the KJV]), the interlinear translation is mine, and you are free to check it against anyone who knows Greek or your lexicon.
I used tilde(s) "~" before and after words to indicate position in the clause or sentence in the Greek (i.e., where the interlinear portion uses a different word order than the Greek text). Having qualified, here is a picture I made of the interlinear of the verse, so that you can view if even if you don't have a Greek font (plus, the standard Symbol font is pretty cheesy ;)
Thus, an ideal English translation would go something along the lines of:
"For God loved the world in this way [a]; that He gave his only Son, in order that [b] everyone who believes in Him may not perish, but have everlasting [c] life"
[a] or, such was the love God to the world, God so loved, etc.
[b] or, so that, etc.
[c] or, eternal, etc.
(Cf. "For this is the way [36] God loved the world: he gave his one and only [37] Son that everyone who believes in him should not perish [38] but have eternal life."
"[36] tn Or “this is how much”; or “in this way.” The Greek adverb outws (outwV) can refer
(1) to the degree to which God loved the world, that is, to such an extent or so much that he gave his own Son (see R. E. Brown, John [AB], 1:133-34; D. A. Carson, John, 204) or
(2) simply to the manner in which God loved the world, i.e., by sending his own son (see R. H. Gundry and R. W. Howell, “The Sense and Syntax of John 3:14-17 with Special Reference to the Use of OutwV…wste in John 3:16,” NovT 41 [1999]: 24- 39).
Though the term more frequently refers to the manner in which something is done (see BAGD 597- 98 s.v. outwV), the following clause involving wste (wste) plus the indicative (which stresses actual, but [usually] unexpected result) emphasizes the greatness of the gift God has given. With this in mind, then, it is likely
(3) that John is emphasizing both the degree to which God loved the world as well as the manner in which He chose to express that love. This is in keeping with John’s style of using double entendre or double meaning. Thus, the focus of the Greek construction here is on the nature of God's love, addressing its mode, intensity, and extent
[...]
[38] tn In John the word apollumi (apollumi) can mean either (1) to be lost (2) to perish or be destroyed, depending on the context." (NET Bible, Net Bible Translation Notes Bible Studies Foundation).
This information doesn't prove my interpretation of the verse, I offer it because I think that sometimes when we are used to a memorized rendering of a passage we attach the memorized interpretation automatically in our mind, and that can sometimes obscure the passage, of course without intention, but none the less.
I'm just trying to make explicit what the the text itself is saying, by translating it in a non-ambiguous way. It may be more flat to the ear, or tedious because of the techincal langage (e.g., "in order that"), but it is better, in my opinion, to be more literal and lose some elegance of statement, than to be more elegant and lose some literality.
Re: A Scriptural truth...
I find it hard to understand why you would claim that God hates the world, when He created it and called it good.
God does hate sin, and love the sinners. God created all of us. We are His creation. He gave us freedom of choice, which is why some choose the wrong path. Those who reject God and His Son, Jesus, then God will reject them at the end of time.
Let me ask this question. God says that no sin shall enter Heaven. But, wasn't satan there as an angel, when he turned away from God and fought against Him? So, was sin in Heaven in satan? This is not an attempt to cause confusion, but is a true attempt to learn on my part.
I have several questions, and those who come to this forum may help me learn theanswers to my questions.
Thanks!
Take care and God bless.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 402
(4/23/02 5:03 pm) Reply
Re: A Scriptural truth...
Well, I would not claim that God hates the world. I would claim that God hates some people who are in the world, and that the only reason He doesn't hate every individual is because He chose to love some people for nothing that is in them, to the praise of the glory of His grace (Eph. 1:6).
"God does hate sin, and love the sinners." That is not what Psalms 5:5 says, as I pointed out in my first post; it says that God hates the workers of iniquity, not only their works. The workers are people, the works are iniquity. I don't mean to press the point, but there is no way to make the passage speak merely about actions to the exclusion of persons, as far as I can tell.
"[God] gave us freedom of choice." Absolutely. I could not agree more. If you want to see a lengthy discussion on how exactly choice works, what nature and desires have to do with it, etc., as I understand them from the Bible, see the thread titled "Why do we do anything?..." on this board.
"Some choose the wrong path." I would say that it is not a case of most people are evil, and some are good, but it is a case that "all have gone out of the way" and "become utterly unprofitable" (Rom. 3:12).
So if all are evil, then why doesn't God hate all, isn't that what I've been saying that the Psalm says? Its true, that is what I've been saying the Psalm says, but my whole point has been that God freely chooses whom He will display His love on, because that all are justly under wrath.
In other words, were God to deal justly with everybody, none would stand in His sight; but He, of His own good pleasure, choose to lay justice on His Son for some and to show His limitless Mercy on them--now, and in the ages to come (Isa. 59:1-16; Eph. 1:3-11).
"God says that no sin shall enter Heaven." Hmmm...I'm not sure what passage you're thinking of, but I am not aware of any that say that. Perhaps you're refering to the verse in 1 Cor. 15 that says that the flesh will not inheret Heaven? or more likely, this passage in Psa. 5:4 or 5a:
"For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight:..."
If this passage is what you're refering to, I would say that I believe the it gives us the normative--that is; as a rule "God has no pleasure in wickedness: neither will evil dwell with Him. The foolish shall not stand in His sight..." But that does not exclude allowing satan to be in His presence to accuse believers, etc.
The thing is, there could only be a variation from the norm. because God allowed it. It is not like God enjoys allowing for sin, but that He has His own purpose that He is accomplishing by it. In the same way, when God chooses to love one who would work iniquity--thus breaking the norm in 5:5b--it is only because of His own gracious purpose and not because of anything in the one working iniquity.
So, satan is only allowed in heaven by divine forbearance, and as soon as God says the word, the host of angels will make war with the dragon and he will be cast down to the earth, and no more place will be found for him in heaven. (Rev. 12:7-8).
I pray that my answers will be edifying, God willing.
Re: A Scriptural truth...
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