A friendly challenge...

So you refuse to read it and quote a bunch of rhetoric, how nice. You could have just said you refuse to read it. you didn't have to post a bunch of lies. Sad that you can only support your position by lying about mine, sad, sad, sad!

"John Calvin, the brilliant systematic theologian of the Reformation, in explaining Predestination, said: "Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death.""

Gee, why did Jehu misquote Calvin ? Let's see:

"5. The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled at, especially by those who make prescience its cause. We, indeed, ascribe both prescience and predestination to God; but we say, that it is absurd to make the latter subordinate to the former (see chap. 22 sec. 1). When we attribute prescience to God, we mean that all things always were, and ever continue, under his eye; that to his knowledge there is no past or future, but all things are present, and indeed so present, that it is not merely the idea of them that is before him (as those objects are which we retain in our memory), but that he truly sees and contemplates them as actually under his immediate inspection.

This prescience extends to the whole circuit of the world, and to all creatures. By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.

This God has testified, not only in the case of single individuals; he has also given a specimen of it in the whole posterity of Abraham, to make it plain that the future condition of each nation lives entirely at his disposal: �When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the Lord�s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance� (Deu. 32:8, 9).

The separation is before the eyes of all; in the person of Abraham, as in a withered stock, one people is specially chosen, while the others are rejected; but the cause does not appear, except that Moses, to deprive posterity of any handle for glorying, tells them that their superiority was owing entirely to the free love of God. The cause which he assigns for their deliverance is, �Because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them� (Deu. 4:37); or more explicitly in another chapter, �The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people: for ye were the fewest of all people: but because the Lord loved you� (Deu. 7:7, 8).

He repeatedly makes the same intimations, �Behold, the heaven, and the heaven of heavens is the Lord�s thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them� (Deu. 10:14, 15). Again, in another passage, holiness is enjoined upon them, because they have been chosen to be a peculiar people; while in another, love is declared to be the cause of their protection (Deu. 23:5).

This, too, believers with one voice proclaim, �He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob, whom he loved� (Psa. 47:4). The endowments with which God had adorned them, they all ascribe to gratuitous love, not only because they knew that they had not obtained them by any merit, but that not even was the holy patriarch endued with a virtue that could procure such distinguished honor for himself and his posterity.

And the more completely to crush all pride, he upbraids them with having merited nothing of the kind, seeing they were a rebellious and stiff-necked people (Deu. 9:6). Often, also, do the prophets remind the Jews of this election by way of disparagement and opprobrium, because they had shamefully revolted from it.

Be this as it may, let those who would ascribe the election of God to human worth or merit come forward. When they see that one nation is preferred to all others, when they hear that it was no feeling of respect that induced God to show more favor to a small and ignoble body, nay, even to the wicked and rebellious, will they plead against him for having chosen to give such a manifestation of mercy?

But neither will their obstreperous words hinder his work, nor will their invectives, like stones thrown against heaven, strike or hurt his righteousness; nay, rather they will fall back on their own heads.

To this principle of a free covenant, moreover, the Israelites are recalled whenever thanks are to be returned to God, or their hopes of the future to be animated. �The Lord he is God,� says the Psalmist; �it is he that has made us, and not we ourselves: we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture� (Psa. 100:3; Psa. 95:7).

The negation which is added, �not we ourselves,� is not superfluous, to teach us that God is not only the author of all the good qualities in which men excel, but that they originate in himself, there being nothing in them worthy of so much honor. In the following words also they are enjoined to rest satisfied with the mere good pleasure of God: �O ye seed of Abraham, his servant; ye children of Jacob, his chosen� (Psa. 105:6).

And after an enumeration of the continual mercies of God as fruits of election, the conclusion is, that he acted thus kindly because he remembered his covenant. With this doctrine accords the song of the whole Church, �They got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them; but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favor unto them� (Psa. 44:3).

It is to be observed, that when the land is mentioned, it is a visible symbol of the secret election in which adoption is comprehended. To like gratitude David elsewhere exhorts the people, �Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, and the people whom he has chosen for his own inheritance� (Psa. 33:12).

Samuel thus animates their hopes, �The Lord will not forsake his people for his great name�s sake: because it has pleased the Lord to make you his people� (1 Sam. 12:22). And when David�s faith is assailed, how does he arm himself for the battle? �Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causes to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts� (Psa. 65:4).

But as the hidden election of God was confirmed both by a first and second election, and by other intermediate mercies, Isaiah thus applies the terms �The Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel� (Isa. 14:1). Referring to a future period, the gathering together of the dispersion, who seemed to have been abandoned, he says, that it will be a sign of a firm and stable election, notwithstanding of the apparent abandonment.

When it is elsewhere said, �I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away� (Isa. 41:9), the continual course of his great liberality is ascribed to paternal kindness. This is stated more explicitly in Zechariah by the angel, the Lord �shall choose Jerusalem again,� as if the severity of his chastisements had amounted to reprobation, or the captivity had been an interruption of election, which, however, remains inviolable, though the signs of it do not always appear." (Calvin; Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Chapter XXI, section 5--whole section).

Thus, lie #1, Calvin didn't say whatJehu wishes he did; and in section 7, where similar words appear, they are to this effect:

"Not that simply to be a son of Abraham was a vain or useless privilege (this could not be said without insult to the covenant), but that the immutable counsel of God, by which he predestinated to himself whomsoever he would, was alone effectual for their salvation. But until the proper view is made clear by the production of passages of Scripture, I advise my readers not to prejudge the question." (idem. section 7).

"Melanchthon, Calvin's student,..."

Lie #2, Philip Melanchton was Martin Luther's successor, not Calvin's stuedent. Theodore Beza was Calvin's friend/successor.

"Calvinists believe that absolutely nothing happens that God has not foreordained or predestined to happen! If an individual goes to heaven, it is because God predestined that he would, independent of anything this individual would do of his own free will; on the other hand, if an individual goes to hell, it is because God predestined that he would, independent of anything this individual would do of his own free will. This point is clearly stated in the Westminster Confession: "Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace.""

While Calvinists teach that ELECTION is based on no foreseen works, what do they say about reprobation?

Let's look at the section of the Westminster confession that was dishonestly left out, and Calvin himself:

"5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory (Rom. 8:30; Eph. 1:4, 9, 11; 1 Thess. 5:9; 2 Tim. 1:9), out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto (Rom. 9:11, 13, 16; Eph. 1:4, 9): and all to the praise of His glorious grace (Eph. 1:6, 12).

6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto (Eph. 1:4, 5; 2:10; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2). Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ (1 Thess. 5:9, 10; Titus 2:14), are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified (Rom. 8:30; Eph. 1:5; 2 Thess. 2:13), and kept by His power through faith unto salvation (1 Peter 1:5). Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only (John 6:64, 65; John 8:47; John 10:26; John 17:9; Rom. 8:28-39; 1 John 2:19).

7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath, for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice (Matt. 11:25, 26; Rom. 9:17, 18, 21, 22; 2 Tim. 2:19, 20; 1 Peter 2:8; Jude 1:4)." (Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter III, sections V-VII)

"As the Lord by the efficacy of his calling accomplishes towards his elect the salvation to which he had by his eternal counsel destined them, so he has judgments against the reprobate, by which he executes his counsel concerning them. Those, therefore, whom he has created for dishonor during life and destruction at death, that they may be vessels of wrath and examples of severity, in bringing to their doom, he at one time deprives of the means of hearing his word, at another by the preaching of it blinds and stupefies them the more. The examples of the former case are innumerable, but let us select one of the most remarkable of all.

Before the advent of Christ, about four thousand years passed away, during which he hid the light of saving doctrine from all nations. If any one answer, that he did not put them in possession of the great blessing, because he judged them unworthy, then their posterity will be in no respect more worthy. Of this in addition to experience, Malachi is a sufficient witness; for while charging them with mixed unbelief and blasphemy, he yet declares that the Redeemer will come. Why then is he given to the latter rather than to the former? They will in vain torment themselves in seeking for a deeper cause than the secret and inscrutable counsel of God.

And there is no occasion to fear lest some disciple of Porphyry with impunity arraign the justice of God, while we say nothing in its defense. For while we maintain that none perish without deserving it, and that it is owing to the free goodness of God that some are delivered, enough has been said for the display of his glory; there is not the least occasion for our caviling. The supreme Disposer then makes way for his own predestination, when depriving those whom he has reprobated of the communication of his light, he leaves them in blindness. Every day furnishes instances of the latter case, and many of them are set before us in Scripture. Among a hundred to whom the same discourse is delivered, twenty, perhaps, receive it with the prompt obedience of faith; the others set no value upon it, or deride, or spurn, or abominate it.

If it is said that this diversity is owing to the malice and perversity of the latter, the answer is not satisfactory: for the same wickedness would possess the minds of the former, did not God in his goodness correct it. And hence we will always be entangled until we call in the aid of Paul's question, "Who maketh thee to differ?" (1Co_4:7,) intimating that some excel others, not by their own virtue, but by the mere favour of God." (Calvin; Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Chapter 30, section 12).

Thus, lie #3, that Calvinists teach reprobation apart from works.

The trend only continues as the post goes on. Do we see some cultic behavior here? I think we do. Instead of looking at what a person really believes, you just post a buch of propaganda and lies in hopes that no-one will actually look at what the other person believes--why, if they did that they would see that you're just spouting lies and propaganda.....then they might actually think about the doctrines your espousing, then they might actually believe the Word and leave your cult--God forbid!!

Why else post all this non-sense? I posted Pastor Daniel's article because you claimed to have read it, and then you made a supposed response to it that said what the article already said, explicitly (look at the second heading). What reason would you have for posting this fallacious non-sense? Sad behaviour bro...very sad. That's all I can say.

I invite anyone reading this to read Pastor Daniel's Introduction to Calvinism (above), and the thread called "Of God's Eternal Decree" (Which is the entire Chapter III of the Westminster Confession of Faith) and see for yourself how much is simply hot air and lies in this propaganda that Jehu has posted.

-J

S.D.G

Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/21/02 9:17:48 am

ChristianWarrior > Unlimited atonement vs limited. > A friendly challenge...
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