Calvinism
Do those who believe in predestination also believe once saved always saved and no choice in accepting Jesus as their Saviour?
iHs Registered User
Posts: 17
(4/1/02 3:37 pm) Reply
Re: Calvinism
Calvinism is a theology based upon Biblical teachings. John Calvin brought the doctrines held to by Calvinists to the forefront of theological thought. It is also the same apostolic teachings of the original New Testament writers. The main tenets of Calvinism sometimes vary significantly from other theological positions.
The beginning point of Calvinistic theology is the belief of total depravity. The unregenerate man is dead in his sins. Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel. The man without knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ. This is in direct conflict with most other religious beliefs that state a man must earn his salvations through good works.
Unconditional Election is the doctrine, which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to the knowledge of himself. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and simply left the unregenerate free to continue in his sinful ways. He has done this act before the foundations of the world. This is in direct conflict with theologies that state man wills God to save the by mans choice.
Limited Atonement is a doctrine stating that Christ died only for those who would believe. The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save. Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all. Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian”.
Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. This teaching is strictly opposed to theologies that state that Jesus’ death rendered salvation as only a potential end, necessary of mans will to accomplish it.
The result of God's irresistible grace is the certain response by the elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit, when the evangelist or minister of the Word of God gives the outward call. Christ, himself, teaches that all whom God has elected will come to a knowledge of him. Men come to Christ in salvation when the Father calls them, and the very Spirit of God leads God's beloved to repentance. What a comfort it is to know that the gospel of Christ will penetrate our hard, sinful hearts and wondrously save us through the gracious inward call of the Holy Spirit! What joy we possess in knowing that God’s plans are absolute and his will is sovereign. This is in contrast to some modern theologies stating that God approaches all men and awaits their answer in working his plans.
Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine, which states that the saints will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. The work of sanctification, which God has brought about in his elect, will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life. Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the last day. The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ's promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in working his sovereign plan for all who will believe. The doctrine of perseverance is the basic opposite of theologies that state man may choose day to day is he is saved or not.
We see that the doctrine of Calvinism can be represented by the acronym TULIP;
Total Depravity: (Total Inability):
Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will.
Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:1).
This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ. (Ephesians 2:1-5).
Unconditional Election:
Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel.
God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4- .
This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-1 . Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve.
Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace.
This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (I Peter 2:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.
Limited Atonement: (Particular Redemption):
Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9). Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:2 .
Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25). This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37).
Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners.
Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!
Irresistible Grace:
The result of God's Irresistible Grace is the certain response by the elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit, when the outward call is given by the evangelist or minister of the Word of God. Christ, himself, teaches that all whom God has elected will come to a knowledge of him (John 6:37).
Men come to Christ in salvation when the Father calls them (John 6:44), and the very Spirit of God leads God's beloved to repentance (Romans 8:14). What a comfort it is to know that the gospel of Christ will penetrate our hard, sinful hearts and wondrously save us through the gracious inward call of the Holy Spirit (I Peter 5:10)!
Perseverance of the Saints:
Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God's stead.
The work of sanctification, which God has brought about in his elect, will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the "last day" (John 6:39).
This my my belief also. God is sovereign, working all things to His glorification. (Prov. 16:4) He saves whom He chooses. (Rom. 9:1 Nobody earns their seat. (Eph. 2:9) We cannot discern our own depravity and need for salvation without the Holy Spirit regenerating our hearts. (Gal 5:17)
In closing i quote two of my favorite theologians;
"To suppose that the Lord Jesus has only half saved men, and that there is needed some work or feeling of their own to finish His work, is wicked." Charles Spur
"All that unreasonable advancement of reason in matters of religion which we have amongst us; the new notions men have of the satisfaction of Christ, pretending to the acknowledgement of it, indeed destructive unto it; the noisome conception of the little use of the person of Christ in religion...doctrines of the possibility, yea, facility of yielding acceptable obedience unto all evangelical commands without the aids of effectual grace, of the powers and incorruption of our nature, of justification by and upon our own obedience, of the suitableness of all gospel mysteries to unrenewed reason or an unsanctified mind, of regeneration as consisting only in the reformation of our lives; with a rejection of all internal real efficacy in converting grace, and the substitution of morality in the room of grace; with the denial of any influences of grace from Jesus Christ unto the holiness of truth; and many other opinions wherewith men even pride themselves, to the contempt of the doctrine received and established in the reformed churches of old, are borrowed out of the
storehouses of their imaginations, shall I say, or raked out of their dunghill." (John Owen VOL 7, p.7
I hope that clears it up. The part about perseverance of the saints.
The Salvation Door
There are three diabolical teachings that I do not agree with in theology. The discourse among the pulpits across the world would have people believe that the Yo Yo salvation, Carpenters Door salvation and the Romans salvation are to be what the church always believed in throughout all history.
These three ambiguous salvation plans are taught in most domestic churches today. They are diabolic because it is a form of control, a way to control people and their money and that man has become the one in control of how salvation should work. The Roman salvation is not as bad as the other two but it still shows that men must go through the Step 1, Step 2 and Step 3 procedures before God can save them.
The Yo Yo salvation plan is when the church teaches that people can lose their salvation and then get re-saved again. This really disturbs me because when you think about it is so ridiculous in theology or in basic sound doctrine that it seems the ones who believe in this do not really understand the full nature of what God had done.
I can imagine that a person who is now sitting with Christ in Heavenly high places as we are now will be sitting with God in heaven and saying, Wait God I have to get out of my seat and leave Heaven for now but I will be back when I get saved again."
Can you imagine while we are sitting with Christ now in our seats that people would be saying this all day long and if you can imagine that thousands and millions having to do this?
I would think it would be very comical to see people getting out of their seats and having to leave and then come back to Heaven all over again and over and over. What a mess! What a laugh! In and Out.
It would drive anyone mad and Christ would not have such a heavenly chorus. Can you imagine one saying here on earth the same thing? Surely God would have a better system than this Yo Yo salvation.
It is nothing different from a child playing with a Yo Yo. Back and forth all the time all day long. Hi Bob, bye Jack, see you later Jesus. I have to go but I will come back after I get saved all over again but remember to save me a seat.
This would make anyone nuts but in reality these teachers do not understand the full atonement of Christ and as Hebrews mentioned that His Priesthood was an eternal one who made one sacrifice and perfected the saints forever.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
The Carpenter's Salvation is when teachers and preacher proclaim that salvation is by one who does accept Christ as if it were by invitation instead of God doing the Calling.
These teachers and preachers will first make the door opened to all people by using certain biblical scriptures that they go by and use it as the "all" time standard for Gods salvation Plan. So each verse is like a door for salvation but this door as you will see has to be made larger each time the salvation verses fail.
For example one will teach, "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is the Christ you will be saved".
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Using this verse to teach thta if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart you will be saved.
So what about the dumb? How can they confess Jesus is the Christ? Then when you confront these teachers with this question about the dumb, they will respond by saying that God will come up with a way to save them.
For example these teachers will say God will have the person read the word and he then can say it in his heart that he believes and will get saved.
What these teachers have done is called back their Carpenter to make the door a little larger because the first door was not quit big enough to allow all people to come in by this verse they use. It left out the dumb.
There is the teaching that if the preacher does not preach then how can they hear and if they cannot hear how can they be saved?
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
So what about the deaf? Even if there is a preacher how can the deaf hear him?
These teachers will tell you that God can make another provision. That God can have them by reading the word of God.
So now these teachers have to call their carpenter again to make the salvation door a bit bigger to let in more people because they made it once again too small by their salvation verses. They left out the deaf.
So now what about the blind and dumb? If the blind and dumb cannot read or see then how will God save them according to the Romans 10:9 salvation plan?
These teachers once again will answer back and say well God can reach them by the Spirit. The Spirit will tell them.
So now they have to call the Carpenter again to make the door even larger.
This time they decided to make the door so large it will allow the blind and deaf to come in.
The problem with this door is it keeps getting larger all the time but these teachers finally have too admit that God's Spirit will tell those who are blind, deaf and dumb and that Jesus is the Christ. This is really compromising their doctrine because it goes right back to what the Calvin’s believe in.
The Calvin’s theology Door says that the Spirit is the one who reveals to all of those whom the Father has given to Jesus. The Spirit made the right size door and does not need man to be the Carpenter.
What is funny is these teachers who say that the Spirit will find a way are really admitting to the Doctrine of Calvinism and do not even know it.
Jesus said I am the Door.... he did not say I am the doors...
If salvation came by the aid of mankind then man is the one who is giving out mercy to whom he wills to preach too. Not all have radios, not all have Braille to read with, not all have hearing aids, and not all have money to preach the gospel to all the cities and all the countries.
So what city will you pick to preach the gospel? What town will you leave out? I rather be under the mercy of God than be under the mercy of men.
Man, money and nothing else will ever barrier to the work of the Holy Spirit.
My conclusion will be what Jesus said about it. He said that all them whom my Father has given unto me I will in no wise cast out. To lose your salvation Jesus has to be the one to cast you out. You cannot cast yourself out because we are boughten with a price and that price was His blood. Also I will go by what Jesus said about being condmened. He said all them that believe in Him has passed from death unto life and shall not come into condemnation.
All other voices is the voice of the wolf and I will not hear the voice of the wolf or the voice of the stranger but I understand that Jesus said my sheep will hear my voice and they will follow me. I do not see Jesus lying about what His sheep will do (follow him) and what how secure they are in Him.
I could go on and give many other examples but a message that is too long on an MSG board can cause people to turn their heads.
Re: The Salvation Door
Angelle Here is what Calvinism means to some non-Calvinsims:
First for the most part, Calvinism is a system of doctrine that is taught in most evangelical denominations. This is by no means all of the doctrine, nor was Calvin the forerunner of this doctrine, just the one that was noted to bring it to the masses.)
There are 5 major points of Calvinism. These 5 points are known by the acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
T = Total hereditary depravity = babies inherit the sin of Adam and are totally depraved and therefore unable to respond to the gospel message of Christ (i.e. babies burn in hell because of Adams sin.)
U = Unconditional election (or predestination) God had a master list of those who will be saved and those who will go to hell before creation in Gen 1:1. The list is unchangeable. (i.e Some will burn in hell, and they have no choice of the matter, nor can they EVER be saved)
L = Limited atonement = Christ did not die for all men but only those on the "saved list" (i.e. If ya made the list precreation your in, if not you burn in hell.)
I = Irresistible grace = God sends the Holy Spirit only those on the saved list which removes their depraved nature inherited from Adam and creates within them a saving faith in Christ. The Holy Spirit thereafter guides them directly to understand and correctly interpret the Bible. (i.e. Only those on the list have their sin removed.)
P = Perseverance of the saints = A child of God once saved, cannot be lost. (i.e. Nothing can keep you from heaven, nothing you do, such as take the mark of the beast.)
Now some men like Spurgeon, Dabney and others, though they would protest the way the above might be stated, when all is said in done admit that the outcome is the same. ( Dabney by the way was Chaplain to Gen. Stonewall Jackson during the Civil War, and it was said used the docrine of Calvinism to defend the atrocities of the northern army on the south... they weren't the elect of God, how could they be, the north was killing them. There is no documentation of this on record though and therefore must be counted as only here say.)
There are many takes on doctrine Churches hold, that have some or all of these teachings as their doctrine. "Belief"
Re: But......KJChristianWarrior
So then He didn't hold fast to the full T.U.L.I.P doctrine for lack of a better word, how could the elect, plus more come to Salavation?
Well Spurgeon
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
had a heart to see people get saved as all true God called preachers behind the pulpit should have.
Charlies said one should not worry about who is the elect but to go out and preach the gospel and not worry about who is saved and leave theology home.
What he was saying is even though the Tulip theology was true that our hearts should not be lessened for wanting to preach the gospel and witness to people.
We will be obeying God when we do and we will have rewards for planting and seeding. Angels knows that God has an elect but they still do the work behind the scenes.
Charlie in that prayer was showing his true heart about wanting to see all people get saved as well as Paul had felt about it.
I think it would be odd if a person did not have this deep desire about people being saved. Charlie in real life though had a peace about salvation for the people because he knew God never does anything spontaneously nor without a perfect plan in perfect details.
Remember if tulip is not true then Jesus who said your names are written in the lambs book before the foundation of the world and the bible says Jesus only can add to the church daily as He sees fit. If this is true then even without the Tulip the book of the lamb has already been written and recorded. So by our witnessing and preaching to see people get saved are we able to add one more soul that is not in the lambs book of life?
Re: Well Spurgeon
Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
And this verse shows these elect can be blotted out, or is God keeping to books, one for us and one for the jews, you yourself brought up the smite the rock
(Which by the way was very informitive, and shows them "Hebrews" to be saved and goes hand in hand with roms chap 11.)
TopHat you said he prayed the ELECT and then some other showing that he felt others could come to salvation. This is not in full line with Limited atonement
The L in T.U.L.I.P.
The Book or Books?
kingJehu,
we know that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Since all have sinned would all be written out of the book? Obviously this book is not the Lambs Book of Life, nor is it the Book of Life that Revelations speaks about. Two kinds of Books.
This book that God is speaking about cannot be the same book concerning the Lambs book of life nor the book of life in Revelation.
If it was then all of us would be blotted out God's book because we have all sinned including Moses sinning against God and was sorely punished for it.
God as we know allowed Moses to be with Jesus at the Mount Transfiguration. What soul has not sinned against God? The meaning of this book in the way you see it would cause one other problem.
Lets say that God wiped all out of His book because all had sinned against him. Well, this same book is not the Lambs Book of Life. This book that God says He will take out someones name could not give us eternal life since this only belonged to those in Christ and the Lambs Book of Life.
This Book that God mentions does not say what kind of Book He had. If it was the kind of Book that He could wipe out a name and the lost was not saved it could not mean this. The only ones who are saved is in Christ Jesus and half the congregation including Aaron and Moses sinned against God.
This book if it was for eternal life would not matter because even then Christ would be the second chance for People like Moses etc. So this Book is not the same for the elect.
The problem would be this, because Jesus said our names are written in the Lambs book of Life before the foundations of the world and then God has another book that He will wipe out their names in His book then whose book shall we go by?
So if we had our names taken out because those who sinned against God then we really should appreciate the Lambs book of Life!
This only strengthens that God's covenant with man by Jesus Christ is even stronger than ever since Jesus said He would never wipe out any mans name out of the Lambs Book of Life by casting them out.
Whosoever comes to me in no wise shall I cast them out and to cast them out He would have to wipe thier names out of the Lambs Book.
If need be I will go much deeper details than this but I think my point is made.
Re: The Book or Books?
TopHat: No bro I see what your saying, the only problem with that is ALL saved are written in the book of life, right? No one gets in unless he is in that book, agreed?
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(Clearly to me Israel in the end will be saved, they we're blind by God to Christ, that the cornerstone would be rejected and therebye bringing salvation to us, and they are credited with it. "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." Assuming God heard Jesus and granted His prayers, even the ones that strung Him up are forgiven. Which by the way clears up mat 13:10-15, and why they were blinded. So then they must be in the book of life. "Of Jacob." Now there is only one book that I know with names written in it, and it seems those of Jacob are in there if all Israel is saved. So one would have to show me this other book, in scripture that you talk about bro, mind you not saying its not there, just have no knowledge of it myself 0
Re: The Book or Books?
"Much comfort, too, flows to a troubled conscience from the promise that God will hear prayer. "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you, for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." If you ask anything of God in the name of Jesus Christ, you shall receive it. Now, there are some who imagine that they must not pray because they do not know whether they are God's chosen people. If you refuse to pray on the ground of such bad reasoning as this, you must do so at your own expense; but do mark our solemn assurance, for which we have God's warrant, that there is nothing in the sovereignty of God which at all militates against the great truth, that every sincerely seeking soul, craving divine grace by humble prayer through Jesus Christ, shall be a finder. There may be an Arminian brother here who would like to get into this pulpit and preach the cheering truth, that God hath not said to the seed of Jacob, seek ye my face in vain. We not only accord him full liberty to preach this doctrine, but we will go as far as he can, and perhaps a little further, in the enunciation of that truth. We cannot perceive any discrepancy between personal election and the prevalence of prayer. Let those who can, vex their brains with the task of reconciling them; to us the wonder is how a man can believe the one without the other. Firmly must I believe that the Lord God will show mercy to whom he will show mercy, and have compassion on whom he will have compassion; but I know as assuredly that wherever there is a genuine prayer, God gave it; that wherever there is a seeker, God made him seek; consequently if God has made the man seek and made the man pray, there is evidence at once of divine election; and the fact stands true that none seek who shall not find.
Very much comfort also is supposed to be derived, and naturally so, from the free invitations of the gospel. "Ah," cries one, "what a sweet thing it is that the Saviour cried, 'Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.' How delightful to read such a word as this, 'Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price,' Sir, my heart is encouraged when I find it written, 'Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.' But, sir, I dare not come because of the doctrine of election." My dear hearer, I would not say anything harshly to you, but I must express my conviction that this is nothing but an idle excuse for not doing what you have no mind to do; because invitations of the most general character, nay, invitations which shall be universal in their scope, are perfectly consistent with the election of God. I have preached here, you know it, invitations as free as those which proceeded from the lips of Master John Wesley. Van Armin himself, the founder of the Arminian school, could not more honestly have pleaded with the very vilest of the vile to come to Jesus than I have done. Have I therefore felt in my mind that there was a contradiction here? No, nothing of the kind; because I know it to be my duty to sow beside all waters, and like the sower in the parable, to scatter the seed upon the stony ground, as well as upon the good land, knowing that election does not narrow the gospel call which is universal, but only affects the effectual call, which is and must be from the Spirit of God. My business is to give the general call, the Holy Spirit will see to its application to the chosen. O my dear hearers, God's invitations are honest invitations to every one of you. He invites you; in the words of the parable he addresses, "All things are ready; come ye to the supper, my oxen and my fatlings are killed." Nay, he saith to his ministers, "Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in." Though he foreknows who will come in, and has before all worlds ordained who shall taste of that supper, yet the invitation in its widest possible range, is a true and honest one; and if you accept it you shall find it so.
Furthermore, if we understand the gospel at all, the gospel lies in a nutshell. It is this:—"Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." Or, to use Christ's words, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned." This promise is the gospel. Now, the gospel is true, whatever else may be false. Whatever doctrine may or may not be of God, the gospel certainly is. The doctrine of sovereign grace is not contrary to the gospel, but perfectly consonant therewith. God has a people whom no man shall number, whom he hath ordained unto eternal life. This is, by no means, in conflict with the great declaration, "He that believeth on him is not condemned." If any man who ever lived, or ever shall live, believes in Jesus Christ, he hath eternal life. Election or no election, if you are resting upon the rock of ages you are saved. If you, as a guilty sinner, take the righteousness of Christ—if all black, and foul, and filthy, you come to wash in the fountain filled with blood, sovereignty or no sovereignty, rest assured of this, that you are redeemed from the wrath to come. O my dear friends, when you say, "I will not believe in Christ because of election," I can only say as Job did to his wife, "Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh." How dare you, because God reveals to you two things, which two things you cannot make square with one another—how dare you charge either the one or the other with being false? If I believe God, I am not only to believe what I can understand, but what I cannot understand; and if there were a revelation which I could comprehend and sum up as I may count five upon my fingers, I should be sure it did not come from God. But if it has some depths vastly too deep for me—some knots which I cannot untie—some mysteries which I cannot solve —I receive it with the greater confidence, because it now gives me swimming-room for my faith, and my soul bathes herself in the great sea of God's wisdom, praying, "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."" Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Metropolitan Tabernacle pulpit, February 7th, 1864 ("Election no Discouragement to Seeking Souls" (Sermon No. 553), emphasis in original)
Calvinism is a system of doctrine that is taught in most evangelical denominations.
Tim here:
Calvinism is a view within evangelical Christianity, but a minor one. It is most prevalent within Presbyterianism, and Fundamental Baptists. However, the largest fellowship/denomination within evangelicalism in the US is not Calvinist in nature, The Southern Baptsist Convention.
In Canada, Calvinism is a very minor blip on the Theological radar. It is a view held mainly by the Fellowship Baptists, Presbyterians, and the "Reformed" Church. Everyone else, theologically, are elsewhere. And no that does not mean that everyone outside of Calvinism are Arminians (Lutherans, Anglicans, Catholics, and some other smaller denominations don't fit in either camp).
I've read in a few posts that Calvinism is "based on scripture." I will admit that is true, but the underlying notion that it is the only view based on scripture, is in error at best. Everyone approaches scripture with their own theological baggage intact. It would do everyone a service to remember that all theology is but a matter of emphasis.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 89
(4/2/02 12:53 pm) Reply
Re: Calvinism
Tim:
Thank you for sharing that!
For fully I agree with you.
"I will admit that is true, but the underlying notion that it is the only view based on scripture, is in error at best. Everyone approaches scripture with their own theological baggage intact."
Exactly! Every one of us (I would assume) is starting with the foundational Christian premises, and thus holding the Bible as the final arbitrator in religious issues, thus it is a complete hinderance to any type of real theological communication to assume that any one interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself!!
We notice that Jesus never condemned traditions in themselves--we all have traditions--baggage--that we bring to our understanding of everything. More technically we have a "World and Life View," our theology being a part of and subject to, it--a tradition (after-all the Bible nowhere says "Lay out the propositional truths of the Bible in a cogent way to aid your understanding" heh). What Jesus condemned were traditions that made void the Word of God.
So I see it as sooooo important to know what, exactly, our theological traditions entail, and to make a clear deliniation between what the Word itself and our traditions relating to it; because we can sooooo easily confuse the Word as interpreted through our "theological glasses" with the Word itself!! (I, sad to admit, catch myself doing it all the time!)
Anyways, just to make clear my own position, I have no underlying notion that Calvinism is the absolutely correct interpretation of Scripture and all else is scrap; I have been very blessed by reading Wesley, Darby, Ryrie, Clarke, Strong, etc. etc. Though, while I have the conviction that it is the most consistant and Biblically sound position, and believe I can argue that case, I have no idea that the conviction is anything more than an expression of my own experience--God knows the truth as it truly is, and as Wesley said; He will one day "make us [all] of one mind" when we inheret the Kingdom in glory. :)
An FYI; the Reformed/Calvinistic Churches in Northern America are a smaller contingent than most independent evangelical groups (e.g., AoG/CoG) or conventional evangelical groups (e.g., SBC/GBC, Miss. Synod), but we are larger than might be expected--there are Free Reformed Churches, Free Presbyterian Churches, Dutch Reformed (mainly in Canada), Presbyterian Churches of America, Presbyterian Churches: USA, the Scotch Presbyterian Church, Reformed Baptist (i.e., the Baptist Churches who still ascribe to the whole of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith), Reformed Episcopalian (to which iHs subscribes), Reformed Anglican, plus lots of independent Reformed Churches that go by various individual names, such as John McArthur's congregation--"Grace Community Church," etc. All in all, we are about as large as the Lutherans; though Methodists, Modern Baptists & their ken still rule the day. ;)
P.S. Doh! How could I forget to mention the Orthodox Presbyterian Churches!! (Sorry, I had to get that in in looking back 'cause some people would kill me for listing PCUSA and leaving out OPC if they saw that hehe we know how them Calvinists can get rowdy when they are riled up...they might take over the Tower of London or something if you're not careful. ;)
The Book or Books?
kingJehu,
I do see in the Bible more than one kind of Book but in Revealtions we see the book of life and the lambs book of life but notice the second kind "the other books" in Revealtion. I will speak of this later but right now work is calling me lol
But anywy bro, I will have to take some time and thought on this matter but then again we are talking some very deep things of God here and some extremely deep theology.
This is one area that very few people go into and you will many commentators do not get into. Any way it will be a challenge and hopefully both of us will learn something out of all this
Some say
it is different and some say it is the same. What most people agree on though in the OT when Moses said take me out of your book cannot be assumed that this book should be known as the book of life or the lambs book of life.
I am doing some writing on this but I need to wait toward the weekend becuase of time and many printing deadlines this week plus a wedding I must go too.
The "other books" shows the condemend.
KingJehu if you can be patient with me then I will try to finish my writings by Sunday.
Calvinism
Re: But......KJChristianWarrior 
Re: The Book or Books?
Email This To a Friend
Topic Commands
Click to receive email notification of replies 
Click to stop receiving email notification of replies