Firstly, if anyone has a disputation or question about any other position, in any area--especially in religous matters--they should be sure to not make blind assumptions, and not to misrepresent the position they are disputing or inquiring about.
This rule is dictated by honesty. It is simply dishonest and unfair to anyone to misrepresent them (whether it is on purpose or not, thus no blind assumptions!).
Next, if you want to use someone's name (e.g., Calvin), in a presentation or rhetorical question, then you should be able to give definite examples of where that person put fowards that point of view in their own writings--in other words, don't go on hear-say, or you will invariably end up in misrepresentation, which amounts to dishonesty.
With that out of the way, there seems to be trend in the questions (loaded or not) that leans toward Calvinism. I assume that this confusion is a question about whether the defining doctrines of Calvinism are to be found in Scripture, or are simply the traditions of a crusty old Reformer in Geneva.
So, I am going to present each of the five heads of doctrine derived from the Canons of the Synod of Dordrecht (Dort), along with a brief statement of what they mean along with some Scriptural references.
Of course, this small amount of space and brief synopsis is in no way sufficient to explain all of Calvinism, but at least it will give anyone who wants to understand it a basis for starting out.
Total Depravity/Inability:
Man, in his fallen nature, is in such a state of moral and physchological corruption that he totally, willfully rebels against God with all the effort he can muster, and in fact, despises God for His holiness and what it reflects about his own defficient character.
Rom 1:18; Joh 8:34; 1Co 2:14; Rom 8:6-8; Joh 6:44; Mat 11:27; Psa 51:5; Gen 6:5; Psa 2:1-3; Hos 6:7; Eph 2:1-3
Unconditional Election:
God, in His secret counsel, has chosen a certain number out of the corrupt mass of humanity to redeem by the sacrifice of His Son, for nothing which is in them, but rather to the praise of His own Glory, according to His Mercy.
Eph 2:4-10; Joh 1:12-13; Rom 8:28-30; Eph 1:3-11; Eze 36:26-27; Rom 9:15-18
Limited Atonement:
Jesus, being sent by the Father, died for the definite purpose of paying the price for sin--making expiation by substitutionary atonement--for those whom God had elected from eternity, and for them only; the whole world of the believing; a nation born in a moment, which look on Him who they have pierced.
1Jo 4:9; Act 13:48; 20:28; Joh 17:9-10; Gal 1:3-5; 1Pe 2:21; Rom 8:33-34; Luk 1:68; Isa 53:11; 1Ti 1:15-16
Irresistable Grace:
The Holy Spirit, in applying the work of Christ, regenerates hearts to faith, repentence and all things Godly, by changing the very nature from the state of corruption into a state of holiness: this is accomplished by the Power of God and is totally effective to its purposed ends--namely the salvation of the soul.
Perseverence of the Saints:
God, in His everlasting love for His elect, preserves them through this life, even through all of their folly; to present them faultless in the day of judgment, when they will be clothed with righteousness and sit at the hand of Christ; their only Lord and Redeemer.
MonkeeSage my dear brother in Christ. please forgive and believe me. My intention was not misrepresent or load a question in any-way-shape or form, by the topic, 'can all men be saved or was Calvin right,' though with afterthought I can see how some might perceived it as such and thus it has been stricken from the records.
Having said that, I point out that you write; Limited Atonement: Jesus, being sent by the Father, died for the definite purpose of paying the price for sin--making expiation by substitutionary atonement--for those whom God had elected from eternity, and for them only; the whole world of the believing; a nation born in a moment, which look on Him who they have pierced.
Re: Now from what I gather of that doctrine, it does limit the number of souls that are saved, meaning other souls have no choice in the matter or the free will to choice Christ and His salvation. And if that being the case and the doctrine of Calvinism I would point out verses
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Showing that some that some that could perish could be saved.
Also note: Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Showing the necessity of preaching, but if the elect are predestined there would be no preaching needed for all would be have in that allotment of souls grace from pre- eternity
Daaaaa King
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 9
(3/23/02 11:55 pm) Reply
Re: Calvinism
Right on, I didn't take offense, I mainly wanted to point out that due to the emotional nature of the issue its easy to misrepresent, and that misrepresentation is in itself unfair. :)
"Now from what I gather of that doctrine, it does limit the number of souls that are saved, meaning other souls have no choice in the matter or the free will to choice Christ and His salvation. And if that being the case and the doctrine of Calvinism I would point out verses"
It indeed does limit the number, but there is a solid rationale behind why, and you cannot help but limit the atonement, either in scope (the number of people saved) or in power (what effect it has on those who are saved).
"The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:
a. All the sins of all men.
b. All the sins of some men, or
c. Some of the sins of all men.
In which case it may be said:
a. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
b. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
c. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?
You answer, "Because of unbelief."
I ask, "Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not?"
If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"
Adapted from: John Owen; "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ" Banner of Truth Trust: 1999 reprint.
BUT--and its a big but (no giggles!)--God does not force anyone to do anything. People act according to their desires--they do according to what they are, a good tree does according to what it is--bring good fuit, the same for an evil tree, and neither one is mixed up.
Rom. 8:7-8 & 1 Cor. 2:14 are very explicit as to what the natural man can and cannot do. Fallen man cannot desire to love God or keep His commands, his state of being itself is enmity against God, thus God must take away his heart of stone and give a heart of flesh, then will he keep God's commandments and _do_ them (Eze. 36:26-27) :)
As far as:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us- ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
Hear John Gill: "but is longsuffering to us-ward: not to all the individuals of human nature, for the persons intended by us are manifestly distinguished from "some men" in the text, and from scoffers, mocking at the promise of Christ's coming, in the context, (2Peter 3:3,4) ; and are expressly called beloved, (2Peter 3:1,8,14,17) ; and God's longsuffering towards them is their salvation, (2Pe_3:15) , nor is it true of all men, that God is not willing that any of them should perish, and that everyone of them should come to repentance, since many of them do perish in their sins, and do not come to repentance, which would not be the case, if his determining will was otherwise; besides, a society or company of men are designed, to which the apostle himself belonged, and of which he was a part; and who are described, in his epistles, as the elect of God, called out of darkness, into marvellous light, and having obtained like precious faith with the apostles; and must be understood either of God's elect among the Jews, for Peter was a Jew, and they were Jews he wrote to; and then the sense is, that the delay of Christ's coming is not owing to any slackness in him, but to his longsuffering to his elect among the Jews, being unwilling that any of that number among them should perish, but that all of them repent of their sins, and believe in him; and therefore he waits till their conversion is over, when a nation shall be born at once, and they that have pierced him look on him and mourn, and so all Israel shall be saved; or rather of the elect in general, whether among Jews or Gentiles, upon whom the Lord waits to be gracious, and whose longsuffering issues in their conversion and salvation.
And upon account of these the Lord stays his coming till their number is complete in the effectual calling; and for their sakes he is longsuffering to others, and bears with a wicked world, with the idolatry, superstition, heresy, profaneness, and impiety, with which it abounds; but when the last man that belongs to that number is called, he will quickly descend in flames of fire, and burn the world, and the wicked in it, and take his chosen ones to himself. The Alexandrian copy reads, "for you", or your sakes; and so the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, and Ethiopic versions. A passage somewhat like to this is met with in a book of the Jews, esteemed by them very ancient.``God prolongs or defers his anger with men; and one day, which is a thousand years, is fixed, besides the seventy years he delivered to David the king.--And he does not judge man by his evil works which he continually does, for if so, the world would not stand; but the holy blessed God defers his anger with the righteous, and the wicked, that they may return, by perfect repentance, and be established in this world, and in the world to come.'' And it is an observation of theirs, that when God is said to be "longsuffering", it is not written (Pa Kra) , but (Mypa Kra), intimating, that he is longsuffering both to the righteous and the wicked; but then he bears with the latter, for the sake of the former: compare with this passage (Rev_6:9-11); not willing that any should perish; not any of the us, whom he has loved with an everlasting love, whom he has chosen in his Son, and given to him, and for whom he has died, and who are brought to believe in him. These, though they were lost in Adam, did not perish; and though in their own apprehensions, when awakened and convinced, are ready to perish; and though their peace, joy, and comfort, may perish for a while, and they may fear a final and total perishing; yet they shall never perish as others do, or be punished with everlasting destruction: and that this is the will of God, appears by his choice of them to salvation; by the provisions of grace for them in an everlasting covenant; by the security of their persons in the hands of Christ; by sending his Son to obtain salvation for them, and his Spirit to apply it to them; and by his keeping them by his power, through faith, unto salvation.
But that all should come to repentance; not legal, but evangelical, without which all must perish; and which all God's elect stand in need of, as well as others, being equally sinners; and which they cannot come to of themselves, and therefore he not only calls them to it, in his word, and by his spirit and grace, but bestows it upon them; he has exalted Christ at his own right hand, to give it to them; and repentance is a grant from him, a free gift of his grace; and the Spirit is sent down into their hearts to work it in them, to take away the stony heart, and give an heart of flesh; without which, whatever time and space may be given, or means afforded, even the most awful judgments, the greatest mercies, and the most powerful ministry, will be of no avail." _Exposition of the New Testament_
There is no shortage of writing by Orthodox Calvinistic men on these issues and passages, I recommend reading them because they all deal with the very same questions/objections that are raised. :)
As for why Calvinists preach: first and foremost God commands us to, regardless of it we understand it, but secondly, because we do understand it; God has not revealed to us those who He has actually chosen, and Peter tells us to count the longsufforing of God as salvation--salvation, that is, on those whom God has yet to save, but will. (2 Peter 3:15).
We witness because:
1) God tells us to make disciples of all nations,
2) We do not know who God has chosen to have mercy on,
3) it is the method God has chosen bring salvation to the
nations "it pleased God by the foolishness fo preaching to save those who believe."
1 Cor. 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
"If, then, you wish to reclaim any one of the fallen, do you exhort him to believe, or not to believe? Undoubtedly you exhort him to believe. But, according to the Lord's words, he who believes shall have everlasting life. How, then, will you forbid to pray for him, who has a claim to everlasting life? Since faith is of divine grace, as the Apostle teaches where he speaks of the differences of gifts, for "to another is given faith by the same Spirit;" And the disciples say to the Lord: "Increase our faith;" He then who has faith has life, and he who has life is certainly not shut out from pardon; "that every one," it is said, "that believeth on Him should not perish." Ambrose; _Concerning Repentance_, 11:48
-J
S.D.G.
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 3/24/02 2:00:45 am
"The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:
a. All the sins of all men.
b. All the sins of some men, or
c. Some of the sins of all men.
In which case it may be said:
a. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
b. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
c. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?
But you forgot (d) All the sins of all men that want it.
Second dude I'm not to sure the elect stand on grace alone, and cannot fall.
2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (Clearly he was saved. For his sins where purged, and only one way to do that.)
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. (may inferring they haven't yet, but are the elect)
Which would of course blow predestination as absolute salvation out of the debate. Predestination does not mean you will make that destination but rather, were designed for it.
i.e. Son goes to the college his father and grandfather went to, same school same alumni, son gets married, starts thinking about a son of his own. Starts a college fund, has son and grooms son for that college. For all intensive purposes that child was predestined to go to college. Boy along the way to his destination sees something that makes him want it more then college, so he doesn't make his predestination.
Mathew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mathew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
(Again clearly they have obtained salvation, then a clear warning that it could be lost)
Daaaaa King
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 24
(3/25/02 5:59 am) Reply
Re: Calvinism
"But you forgot (d) All the sins of all men that want it."
That was from John Owen, and he did not forget your "(d)," he specifically asked the question; why should unbelief (said: "people who don't want it") hinder them from entering Heaven any more than any of their other sins for which Christ died? Owen was pointing out what Spurgeon did, if you make the atonement universal in its scope then you have to end up saying one of two things; (1) that all persons will be saved certainly, or (2) no persons will be saved certainly. You're not a Universalist as far as I know, so I assume you would hold to option (2), in which case you (by limiting the ability of the atonement to actually save) would be affirming that Christ's death alone doesn't save, and that it only makes it possible to save yourself by faith (i.e., it satisfies God so that God can then save man on the basis of man's own merit.)
A more dire consequence of holding to this type of view is that God made Jesus suffer unimaginably for the sins of some people, whom He will afterwards send to hell for eternity for a sin Christ already paid for. This view, as far as I can tell, represents God as unjust as well as incompotent or uncaring.
I could repeat more commentaries from Gill, or from Hodge, or from Calvin himself on those verses you believe teach an apostization from true salvation by true believers, but I think the case is pretty plain. You believe that because you believe that salvation is conditional, which you believe because of your belief in universal atonement, which you believe because of your belief in the non-depravity of man (at least in the sense of all men in their natural state being able to "will to believe" in Christ); I don't believe it because I hold to the exact opposite basic principles than you do: If you want a Calvinistic treatment of those verses you can look them up:
Other resources: www.reformed.org/books/
(I highly recommend reading both works by A.W. Pink that are on this website, he explains orthodox Calvinism at great length)
As for your explaination of predestination, there is a problem with it; when we look at the Bible we find:
1. God is completely sovereign over the external conditions of human life. (Matt. 10:29-31).
2. God is completely sovereign over the method of salvation. (Acts 2:23-24; Isa. 59:16; Psa. 118:21-23).
3. God is completely sovereign over the amount of time a person is allowed to live. (Heb. 9:27; Eze. 18:4).
Thus, if it also true that:
4. God wants all individuals who have existed or will ever exist to be saved. (1 Tim. 2:4).
Then why don't we see:
(1) The external conditions in the lives of all individuals leading them inexorably to,
(2) the chosen method of salvation, in
(3) the amount of life that has been given to them?
Surely, God is able to do this (even if the presupposition is that the chosen method involves unaided volitional consent; that is, "free will,") if God is truely sovereign in these areas, as the Bible seems to expressly teach.
Since it is possible for an absolute, universal salvation without compromising unaided volitional consent ("free will"); yet this is not the case; then (4) seems to be an incorrect understanding of Scripture.
I would submit that the "pantos" [the Greek word translated "all"] in 1 Tim. 2:4, etc. be taken as it is in Luke 11:42; as "all manner;" every kind and type, and not as every individual; and the verse understood as teaching that God wills that some of all types, classes and nations; a "Great Multitude" that He has called out from all types, classes, tongues and nations (Rev. 7:9); be saved.
Again, you understand those verses in Matt. 5 (or anywhere else) as meaning real believers losing real salvation, because of the presuppositions you bring to interpreting it, just as I interpret it the opposite way because of my presuppositions--the text itself is capable of being explain in either context; there is no avoiding that, the issue is which presuppositions are going to be consistant with the whole.
How can you starting premise (that man isn't really that bad) be made to jive with John 10:26?
The text is:
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
It does not say "ye are not of my sheep, because ye believe not" which would be to say that being a sheep of Christ is a consequence of a persons will to believe, but the text says "ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep," which is just to say that a person believes in consequence of being made a sheep of Christ.
Ambiguous passages can be interpreted either way by either side, but when we get to the root issues of--the condition of fallen man--his ability--God's choice--etc., I don't believe that the Arminian system holds up.
John Owen once observed that "the man who prays as he oughts, will endevour to live as he prays"--that is to say, the man who truely knows God becomes a Calvinist the moment he steps into his prayer closet, and eventually the man who truely prays to God will become a Calvinist when he steps out as well.
"The case is quite plain. There are bigots both for predestination and against it. God is sending a message to those on either side. But neither will receive it, unless from one who is of their own opinion. Therefore, for a time you are suffered to be of one opinion, and I of another. But when his time is come, God will do what man cannot, namely, make us both of one mind." John Wesley to George Whitefield, London, Aug. 9, 1740.
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 3/25/02 8:19:06 am
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 28
(3/26/02 12:21 am) Reply
Re: Calvinism
** P.S. I am adding two paragraphs from the Canons of Dordrecht (the synodal conclusions from which the "5 points" are derived) to establish the orthodox Calvinistic position as stated in my last post :)
"¶1 Error: God the Father has ordained His Son to the death of the cross without a specific and definite decree to save any. What Christ obtained by His death might have been necessary, profitable, and valuable, and might remain in all its parts complete, perfect, and intact, even though the redemption He acquired had actually never been applied to any person.
Refutation: This doctrine is offensive to the wisdom of the Father and the merits of Jesus Christ and is contrary to Scripture. For our Saviour says: I lay down My life for the sheep, and I know them, Joh 10:15, Joh 10:27. And the prophet Isaiah says concerning the Saviour: When He makes Himself an offering for sin, He shall see His offspring, He shall prolong His days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in His hand, Isa 53:10. ..."
"¶3 Error: By His satisfaction Christ did not really merit for anyone either salvation itself or faith by which this satisfaction of Christ to salvation is effectually made one’s own. He acquired for the Father only the authority or the perfect will to deal again with man, and to prescribe new conditions as He might desire. It depends, however, on the free will of man to fulfil these conditions. Therefore it might happen that either no one or all men would fulfil them.
Refutation: Those who teach this error think contemptuously of the death of Christ, in no wise acknowledge its most important fruit or benefit, and bring back out of hell the Pelagian error." Head 2, Rej., para. 2; 3. (www.canrc.org/resources/b...d2.html#E1 ) - If anyone would like a formatted (.RTF) version of the Canons, feel free to e-mail me; they are also available online at: www.canrc.org/resources/b...index.html
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 3/26/02 3:17:10 am
To me as you well know, the word of God takes antecedence to all mans doctrines and thoughts. Therefore one must convince me by examining said word, verse by verse and prove the word is not saying what it seems to say to me. such as:
Gal. 5:1 Standfast there for in the liberty wherein Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage . Behold, I Paul say unto you ,that if ye be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified bye the law, YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE.
(You have to have grace to fall from it. By grace ye are saved, turn back to legalism as some Galatians had done , lost salvation is found)
Mathew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mathew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
(Again clearly they have obtained salvation, then a clear warning that it could be lost)
2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (Clearly he was saved. For his sins where purged, and only one way to do that.)
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. (may inferring they haven't yet, but are the elect)
Let us tackle these verses first, and show that one the elect have a free ride to salvation, bar nothing
By Father not being bound by time, sure he can number the elect, and say the foundation of salvation was made for these... but I don't see that as saying others that didn't make it, had no chance to attain salvation likewise.
Daaaaa King
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 33
(3/26/02 3:48 pm) Reply
Re: Calvinism
"To me as you well know, the word of God takes antecedence to all mans doctrines and thoughts..."
The same here, but its pointless to re-invent the wheel, I'll I'm going to do is tell you what I learned from men who studied these issues their whole lives and wrote 20-some volume commentaries on it--I'm not going to re-write them, there is no need to. We all have secondary standards, which of course must always conform to and confirm our primary standard; the Bible, but like I said there is no reason for me to repeat the same things that you can find in the links I've provided.
"...Therefore one must convince me by examining said word, verse by verse and prove the word is not saying what it seems to say to me. such as:
Gal. 5:1 Standfast there for in the liberty wherein Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage . Behold, I Paul say unto you ,that if ye be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified bye the law, YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE.
(You have to have grace to fall from it. By grace ye are saved, turn back to legalism as some Galatians had done , lost salvation is found)"
It seems like putting the cart before the horse to say I have to disprove your beliefs before you will look at the disproof--namely the commentaries and creed I provided link too, but ok, I'm game.
Gal. 5:1-4 First of all is context, is this talking about how to be saved? Or is this a warning about practice? It is a warning about practice (vss. 4:30-31; 5:13). Ok, so lets look at the verse specifically:
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free--] Made us free from the condemnation of the Law; Stand fast--why? Because, we are not born of the bondwomen but of the free, the only heir and child of promise (4:30-31).
...be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage--] I.e., the false use of the Law the Apostle implicitly speaks against elsewhere as (1 tim 1:8).
... if ye be circumcised--] That is, as a means of justification as if he had said "if ye think your right standing before God be be by circumcision." Certainly, we will not even entertain the view that regards this passage as speaking of circumcision in general, which would exclude all physical Jews from fellowship with Christ;
...Christ shall profit you nothing--] Christ is made of no effect to you, because only the shed blood of Christ avails anything in justification before God, whereas you [who trust in circumcision for justification] have reterned to the old shadows in which there is no longer any substance.
...every man that is circumcised--] Again, the idea is implicit of those who trust in the Law, as symbolized by the circumcision of the flesh, to obtain right standing before God;
...that he is a debtor to do the whole law--] Such an one is condemned (because of his sin) by the whole Law in which he seeks justification--the irony being just that "...the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Rom. 9:30-33).
...whosoever of you are justified by the law--] Synonymous with "circumcised;"
...ye are fallen from grace--] The grace of the blood sacrifice by which the Law was fullfilled. "Fallen" not in a moral sense, but in a sense of "descending" to the previous, the "fleshly." This is why Paul was amazed at their foolishness: "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:2-3).
"Mathew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mathew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
(Again clearly they have obtained salvation, then a clear warning that it could be lost)"
I don't understand what you mean that the warning was about salvation, I see that Jesus is giving (1) the general principle that holy ("saved") men suffer in an evil world--as the prophets serve to illustrate, (2) an exhortation because of the wickedness of the world--salt is a preservative, then (3) a definite statement that the lamp cannot be hidden away:
(1) Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (vss. 10-12).
(2) Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. (v. 13).
(3) Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (vss. 14-16).
"2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (Clearly he was saved. For his sins where purged, and only one way to do that.)"
Without going into great detail, I take the view that "kaqarismou" means "cleanse" or more properly, "ritual cleansing," as it is used all through the NT (Mat. 23:26; Act 10:14-15; 11:9; 1 Cor. 7:1; Jam. 4:8) and see Peter talking about making a ritual profession of savlvation from sins by being burried together with Jesus (i.e., baptism, Rom. 6:4). I also believe they are real Christians who have backslidden, Peter goes on to say that he does not doubt their salvation in any way, but rather he says: "...I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;" (v. 13) Remember what? That they made a profession of Christ, anf therefore should live accordingly; their sins are something "old" not something they continued in, yet he did not want them to remember their former state of being before they were brought to profession by the Spirit (Eph. 2:1-3), and to stir them up to live up to high standard of their election.
"2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
See above. Also notice that there are two ways to interpret this verse, and verses like it, in which case we bring in our other premises in order to understand it. It could mean:
1) In light of your calling and election you must diligently work to live accordingly, because "those who do these things" show in practice that they are "those who will never fall."
2) In light of being able to fall you must diligently work to become\stay elected and called, because if you do them you will be/stay elected and called.
I obviously take the first interpretation (1), but the verse itself is interpreted in light of other more concrete premises provided by other verses that are more easily understood.
"2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. (may inferring they haven't yet, but are the elect)"
In order for the Greek to have the sense you gave it in your interpretation would require a change of the whole verse. "May" [tugxanw] appears in a hina clause; a hina clause states a specific purpose--"In order that.." or "For this reason..." etc. The second thing is tugxanw is used intransitively, that is to say, it has the force of "be brought to pass" or "be effected." There is no conditional clause in the whole passage. Thus A.T. Robertson says in his _New Testament Word Pictures_ that it is a "Purpose clause with second aorist (effective) active subjunctive of tugxanw with genitive. "They as well as I," Paul means." And, W.R. Nicoll _Expositor's Greek Testament_ gives the same force to the words: "kai autoi: they also (as well as I)" Thus the sense that seems to be the plainest to me is that PAul was willing to endure anything if it meant others would be made partakers of the same election to which He was elected. (Cf. Phili. 1:21-24; 2Pe. 3:15).
"Let us tackle these verses first, and show that one the elect have a free ride to salvation, bar nothing"
I already pointed out that the elected have a heart transplant. They live life like new creations, not like old sinners. And that God uses means like faith, repentence, etc. As for bar nothing, I don't know how much more plain you can get than these verses:
Rom. 8:31-39 What shall we then say to these things?
If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?
It is God that justifieth.
Who is he that condemneth?
It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword (As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter)?
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
"By Father not being bound by time, sure he can number the elect, and say the foundation of salvation was made for these... but I don't see that as saying others that didn't make it, had no chance to attain salvation likewise."
Either Christ's death saves or it doesn't, if it does and it is applied to every human being ever, then every human being ever is saved. The only alternative is that it does not actually save unless man does ______ (fill in the blank) or believes _____ (fill in the blank), OR, that is doesn't apply to everyone.
The view is either that God has given you a blank check that you have to fill out and write your name on and that could be stolen or lost on the way to the bank, or that God has given you all manner of spiritual blessings in the Heavenlies (Eph. 1:3-6).
The whole hinge on which all of this turns goes back to Total depravity, so, since I answered your verses, please return the favor and explain how to understand four passages on your view of man:
1 Cor. 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he [ou dunatai] know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Rom. 8:6-8 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be [oude...dunatai]. So then they that are in the flesh cannot [ou dunatai] please God.
Matt. 11:25-27 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth [oude...epiginoskei] any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
I see no way to make those fit with your starting premise that man is not totally depraved (i.e., he can still will to serve sin or God as if sin had never been introduced). I am with Augustus Montague Toplay who wrote the hymn "Rock of Ages," when he said: "A man’s free will cannot cure him even of the toothache, or of a sore finger; and yet he madly thinks it is in its power to cure his soul of sin."
Monk by this view of election and predestination (irrevocable) one omits the temptation factor and the necessaries of preaching.
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
That verse alone shows the need for the word to be preached and why the need if the elect are stamped and sealed and not able to lose that seal? There would be no need to preach the word to the lost, either they are doomed from the start or saved from the start.
MonkeeSage you write: Gal. 5:1-4 First of all is context, is this talking about how to be saved? Or is this a warning about practice? It is a warning about practice (vss. 4:30-31; 5:13). Ok, so lets look at the verse specifically:
My contention is why warm them of anything at all if they are the elect, if they're seal is unalterable there would be no need for the warnings at all. Not when it comes to "fallen from grace" anyway. How could they. Is it your contention that fallen from grace does not mean lost salvation? "For by grace we are saved."
re: Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free--] Made us free from the condemnation of the Law; Stand fast--why? Because, we are not born of the bondwomen but of the free, the only heir and child of promise (4:30-31).
(Clearly, at least to me he is taking to the already saved. One cannot be made free by Christ unless he has grace and salvation.)
re: be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage--] I.e., the false use of the Law the Apostle implicitly speaks against elsewhere as (1 tim 1: .
(Again they arent entangled in the world (sin) in this case living for the law. And a warning that they could slip back into following the law.)
re:Christ shall profit you nothing--] Christ is made of no effect to you, because only the shed blood of Christ avails anything in justification before God, whereas you [who trust in circumcision for justification] have reterned to the old shadows in which there is no longer any substance.
(Monkee even here you show that they were clinging to Christ at one point and either about to turn back to the laws need of savlation fulfillment or had already. Either way showing that one could turn from Christ and go back to the law, which would constitute lost salvation. Now if they were seal irreversible there would be no need for the warning that they better not.)
re: ye are fallen from grace--] The grace of the blood sacrifice by which the Law was fullfilled. "Fallen" not in a moral sense, but in a sense of "descending" to the previous, the "fleshly." This is why Paul was amazed at their foolishness: "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:2-3).
(Here you write) "The grace of the blood sacrifice by which the Law was fullfilled." (Which is the blood of Christ, and a warning that they could indeed fall from the grace)
Re: W.R. Nicoll _Expositor's Greek Testament_ gives the same force to the words: "kai autoi: they also (as well as I)" Thus the sense that seems to be the plainest to me is that PAul was willing to endure anything if it meant others would be made partakers of the same election to which He was elected. (Cf. Phili. 1:21-24; 2Pe. 3:15).
(This alone is flawed alone if taken the Calvinistic view, there would be no need, as they are the elect and nothing can reverse that, not even them.)
Re: "Mathew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mathew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
(Again clearly they have obtained salvation, then a clear warning that it could be lost)"
I don't understand what you mean that the warning was about salvation, I see that Jesus is giving (1) the general principle that holy ("saved") men suffer in an evil world--as the prophets serve to illustrate, (2) an exhortation because of the wickedness of the world--salt is a preservative, then (3) a definite statement that the lamp cannot be hidden away:
(Monkee I mean this, he is cleary is talking to those that are of God "saved" because that believed on him... calling them the salt of the world. then warns them about losing that faith they hold. mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.)
Re: "2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
See above. Also notice that there are two ways to interpret this verse, and verses like it, in which case we bring in our other premises in order to understand it. It could mean:
1) In light of your calling and election you must diligently work to live accordingly, because "those who do these things" show in practice that they are "those who will never fall."
2) In light of being able to fall you must diligently work to become\stay elected and called, because if you do them you will be/stay elected and called.
(To me bro there is only one way to interpret it. #2)
KJV James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
KJV James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
re: Either Christ's death saves or it doesn't, if it does and it is applied to every human being ever, then every human being ever is saved. The only alternative is that it does not actually save unless man does ______ (fill in the blank) or believes _____ (fill in the blank), OR, that is doesn't apply to everyone.
or believes _____ (fill in the blank),
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (blank filled in) (That does not limit it to anyone one group or elections but whoever)
KJV 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(Clearly showing that the whole world has a chance, to me at least.)
Daaaaa King
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 36
(3/26/02 6:26 pm) Reply
Re: Calvinism
"Monk by this view of election and predestination (irrevocable) one omits the temptation factor and the necessaries of preaching.
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
That verse alone shows the need for the word to be preached and why the need if the elect are stamped and sealed and not able to lose that seal? There would be no need to preach the word to the lost, either they are doomed from the start or saved from the start."
I've alrady answered this charge, if you don't acknowledge my answers that is misrepresentation. Mabye you missed it, so let me repost:
As for why Calvinists preach: first and foremost God commands us to, regardless of it we understand it, but secondly, because we do understand it; God has not revealed to us those who He has actually chosen, and Peter tells us to count the longsufforing of God as salvation--salvation, that is, on those whom God has yet to save, but will. (2 Peter 3:15).
We witness because:
1) God tells us to make disciples of all nations,
2) We do not know who God has chosen to have mercy on,
3) it is the method God has chosen bring salvation to the
nations "it pleased God by the foolishness fo preaching to save those who believe."
1 Cor. 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Why do we preach? In real strait foward terms: because "it has pleased God."
As we see from Job, the purpose of temptation is to drive man to see his need for God, as we are told by Paul, to see which works remain and which were wood, hay and stubble.
Why was Jesus tempted? Because "...in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." (Heb. 2:17)
"MonkeeSage you write: Gal. 5:1-4 First of all is context, is this talking about how to be saved? Or is this a warning about practice? It is a warning about practice (vss. 4:30-31; 5:13). Ok, so lets look at the verse specifically:
My contention is why warm them of anything at all if they are the elect, if they're seal is unalterable there would be no need for the warnings at all. Not when it comes to "fallen from grace" anyway. How could they. Is it your contention that fallen from grace does not mean lost salvation? "For by grace we are saved.""
This is why we do exposition. Because we want to find out what the Bible says to us, not find into the Bible what we believe it should say. That's exactly what I;m saying, because that's what the text plainly says in its own context. Paul is warning Galatian believers not to be fooled by false teachers who told them that they needed to go back to the sacrifices and ordinances of the Law.
Sounds like a valid pastoral concern to address doesn't it? The "fallen from grace" there means "recended from the value of the blood of Christ to the fleshly shadows, which have passed away" as my commentary pointed out.
Eph. 2:8 speaks of salvation. This whole thing is really a pretty silly argument, (with all due respect), because if you want to make every place where "grace" occurs equal "saving Grace" you end up saying things like:
"Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the saving Graces of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best saving Graces: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way." (1 Cor. 12:29-31).
"re: Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free--] Made us free from the condemnation of the Law; Stand fast--why? Because, we are not born of the bondwomen but of the free, the only heir and child of promise (4:30-31).
(Clearly, at least to me he is taking to the already saved. One cannot be made free by Christ unless he has grace and salvation.)"
Right, this is addressed to believers and already assumes they are Christians, which 4:30-31 makes very clear: "Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free..." But its not talking about losing salvation he is talking about "Those who forsake their own duty, forsake their own mercy; those who run away from the work of their place and day, run away from the comfort of it. As far as a believer copies those who observe lying vanities, he forsakes his own mercy, and lives below his privileges [Mathey Henery]."
"re: be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage--] I.e., the false use of the Law the Apostle implicitly speaks against elsewhere as (1 tim 1: .
(Again they arent entangled in the world (sin) in this case living for the law. And a warning that they could slip back into following the law.)"
Of course they could, as I've already pointed out, just because God is the effectual cause of everything, ("...without Him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3)); doesn't mean God doesn't use means, like faith, repentence, etc. We [true Christians] continually fall into sin and then are restored by the power of God, then fall and are restored and little by little we are changed into the image of Christ, who are redeemed by His blood. Irresistable grace doesn't mean hyper-pietistim, i.e. that nobody can sin after salvation, it means that in God's time, according to God's will, He will work a work that is completely effectual in their heart and they will have new desires, to blieve, confess, repent, etc.
Entangled refers back to the "yoke of bondage" prefigured by Hagar (the bondwoman) and her son--the heirs by Law, but not by promise (faith) in Gal. 4.
"re:Christ shall profit you nothing--] Christ is made of no effect to you, because only the shed blood of Christ avails anything in justification before God, whereas you [who trust in circumcision for justification] have reterned to the old shadows in which there is no longer any substance.
(Monkee even here you show that they were clinging to Christ at one point and either about to turn back to the laws need of savlation fulfillment or had already. Either way showing that one could turn from Christ and go back to the law, which would constitute lost salvation. Now if they were seal irreversible there would be no need for the warning that they better not.)"
No idea where you get the idea from 1) true Christians can sin, and 2) the Galatians being chided for their error, showing that..what? fallible man can err, and needs constant reminder of the Gospel? To an idea that this passage talks about losing salvation.
Christ is made of no effect _to you_ if you speak Arabic and no English and I tell you the Gospel in English. But just because Christ is no effect _to you_ doesn't mean He is of no effect _for_ you. Christ interceeds continually for His sheep, even when they err--especially when they err--but with Paul, here, I concur, that if the Galatians believed that the Law was parallel with the Gospel instead of one continuing story (much like modern Dispensationalism, interestingly), then they will fail to see the signifigance of the sacrifice of Christ. That doesn't mean they will no be effected by it, it means that they have no means whereby to effect the proper understanding of Christ. If Paul wanted to say otherwise he could have easily used the same terms he had used a couple chapters back and there wouldn't be any dispute: "...if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." If he said "the death of Christ is become vain unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" ... But, he didn't. :)
"re: ye are fallen from grace--] The grace of the blood sacrifice by which the Law was fullfilled. "Fallen" not in a moral sense, but in a sense of "descending" to the previous, the "fleshly." This is why Paul was amazed at their foolishness: "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:2-3).
(Here you write) "The grace of the blood sacrifice by which the Law was fullfilled." (Which is the blood of Christ, and a warning that they could indeed fall from the grace)"
See all the preceeding.
"Re: W.R. Nicoll _Expositor's Greek Testament_ gives the same force to the words: "kai autoi: they also (as well as I)" Thus the sense that seems to be the plainest to me is that PAul was willing to endure anything if it meant others would be made partakers of the same election to which He was elected. (Cf. Phili. 1:21-24; 2Pe. 3:15).
(This alone is flawed alone if taken the Calvinistic view, there would be no need, as they are the elect and nothing can reverse that, not even them.)"
God uses means, humans are responsible, etc. etc. on Calvinism, so I really don't know what you mean. There is no conditional clause in the verse; the "may" that you believe is conditional because of the ambiguity of the Engliah use of the world "may" is not. It's in a causal clause. Correctly rendered this verse reads:
For that reason, I endure everything for the sake of those who have been chosen so that they, too, may receive the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, along with eternal glory.
"May" being effective; "...would be able:" not conditional; "...might possibly receive...if."
"Re: "Mathew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mathew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
(Again clearly they have obtained salvation, then a clear warning that it could be lost)"
I don't understand what you mean that the warning was about salvation, I see that Jesus is giving (1) the general principle that holy ("saved") men suffer in an evil world--as the prophets serve to illustrate, (2) an exhortation because of the wickedness of the world--salt is a preservative, then (3) a definite statement that the lamp cannot be hidden away:
(Monkee I mean this, he is cleary is talking to those that are of God "saved" because that believed on him... calling them the salt of the world. then warns them about losing that faith they hold. mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.)"
Where did you ever get the idea that salt = faith? Lampstands, light, etc. is representative of the Holy Spirit all through the Bible, salt is never used. The light cannot be hid--the faith inspired by the Holy Spirit. The way they impacted the world (which is wasting away) is salt, they are a preservative (look at the US in contrast with other nations which were no built on Christians principles), if they stop preserving and become like the world in their methods, assumptions, etc. then where is the whole purpose of having been made salt? Where is the preserving factor--gone--though the light cannot be hid? I see no reason to connect the salt "losing its savor" with the believer losing salvation.
"re: Either Christ's death saves or it doesn't, if it does and it is applied to every human being ever, then every human being ever is saved. The only alternative is that it does not actually save unless man does ______ (fill in the blank) or believes _____ (fill in the blank), OR, that is doesn't apply to everyone.
or believes _____ (fill in the blank),
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (blank filled in) (That does not limit it to anyone one group or elections but whoever)"
Never die? Jesus must have been confused, He must have meant "never die for as long as you exercise your autonomous will to do _____ or believe ______" :P
"KJV 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(Clearly showing that the whole world has a chance, to me at least.)"
They surely do. Which world though? The world that "...did not recognize him" (John 1:10) that Jesus "[does] not pray for" (John 17:8-9)? The world that "light is come into" but which "loved darkness rather than light" (John 3:19). I do no believe so. The world is seen as a "mass of sin" (1 John 5:19). This propitiation is explained by Gill as being:
"...not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew, and so were those he wrote unto, but for the Gentiles also. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles amle, "the world"; and Mlweh lk, "the whole world"; and Mlweh twmwa, "the nations of the world" (l); See Gill on John 12:19; and the word "world" is so used in Scripture; see John 3:16; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that hrpk Nhl Nya, "there is no propitiation for them" (m): and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say (n),
"it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, amle ylwk, "the whole world" went after him;''
which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere (o) it is said,
"amle ylwk, "the "whole world" has left the Misna, and gone after the "Gemara";''
which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place (p),
"amle ylwk, "the whole world" fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;''
where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said (q), when
"R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), amle ylwk, "the whole world" stood up before him;''
that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added (r),
"when a great man makes a mourning, amle ylwk, "the whole world" come to honour him;''
i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, ygylp al amle ylwk, "the whole world" is not divided, or does not dissent (s); yrbo amle ylwk, "the whole world" are of opinion (t), are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, "all the men of the world" (u), only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, "all the world", or "the whole world", in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luk 2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1 John 5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world; and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins", the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself; who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs: so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it; moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind; add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, 1 John 2:1; but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for John 17:9, and consequently is not a propitiation for them.
Once more, the design of the apostle in these words is to comfort his "little children" with the advocacy and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, who might fall into sin through weakness and inadvertency; but what comfort would it yield to a distressed mind, to be told that Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints, but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell? Would it not be natural for persons in such circumstances to argue rather against, than for themselves, and conclude that seeing persons might be damned notwithstanding the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, that this might, and would be their case.
In what sense Christ is a propitiation, See Gill on Rom. 3:25. The Jews have no notion of the Messiah as a propitiation or atonement; sometimes they say (w) repentance atones for all sin; sometimes the death of the righteous (x); sometimes incense (y); sometimes the priests' garments (z); sometimes it is the day of atonement (a); and indeed they are in the utmost puzzle about atonement; and they even confess in their prayers (b), that they have now neither altar nor priest to atone for them; See Gill on 1 John 4:10.
(l) Jarchi in Isa. liii. 5.
(m) T. Hieros. Nazir, fol. 57. 3. Vid. T. Bab. Succa, fol. 55. 2.
(n) T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 71. 2.
(o) T. Bab. Bava Metzia, fol. 33. 2.
(p) T. Bab. Megilla, fol. 22. 2.
(q) T. Bab. Horayot, fol. 13. 2.
(r) Piske Toseph. Megilla, art. 104.
(s) T. Bab. Cetubot, fol. 90. 2. & Kiddushin, fol. 47. 2. & 49. 1. & 65. 2. & Gittin, fol. 8. 1. & 60. 2.
(t) T. Bab. Kiddushin, fol. 48. 1.
(u) Maimon. Hilch. Tephilla, c. 11. sect. 16.
(w) Zohar in Lev. fol. 29. 1.
(x) Ib. fol. 24. 1. T. Hieros. Yoma, fol. 38. 2.
(y) T. Bab. Zebachim, fol. 88. 2. & Erachin, fol. 16. 1.
(z) T. Bab. Zebachim, ib. T. Hieros. Yoma, fol. 44. 2.
(a) T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 87. 1. & T. Hieros. Yoma, fol. 45. 2, 3.
(b) Seder Tephillot, fol. 41. 1. Ed. Amsterd."
From Gill's Exposition of the Bible.
You didn't explain those Scriptures in light of your view of man...?
-J
S.D.G
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 39
(3/26/02 9:42 pm) Reply
Re: Calvinism
This doesn't make any sense to me...
2 Peter 1:2-4 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Grace and peace--] Which come through;
...knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord--] According to which He has; by
...his divine power hath given--] Given, not rewarded;
...all things that pertain unto life and godliness--] Not many, or some, but "all," or perhaps more accurately, "all manner;"
...through the knowledge of him that hath called--] Again, God's knowledge, the highest wisdom that exists, is said to work here in calling the readers to;
...glory and virtue--] Not in foresight of glory or virtue as already had, but unto those ends;
...Whereby are given unto us---] By what? that same knowledge of God; given, the action is again on God's part;
...that by these--] These sure promises;
...ye might be partakers--] The reader, too, Peter includes;
...partakers of the divine nature--] Stronger than "partakers of the Holy Spirit" which could even be stated of apostates (Heb. 6:4-8);
...having escaped the corruption that is in the world--] By the same effectual means that the promises were given and by which Grace and peace are transmitted; namely God's infinite wisdom.
In light of actually trying to see what the whole passage means and what Peter is arguing, it makes no sense to think that 6 verses later he would be urging them not to lose their salvation. He just told them that God had given them all things in His infinite wisdom that pertained to their spiritual life!! All things, except....abiding faith? Doesn't make any sense...
-J
P.S. I was meaning to give the URL for my homepage...here is as good a place to put it as any :) I wanted to give it because it has some articles I have written (some short, others longer), specifically the one on 11 Questions for Calvinism; it covers most of the objections you've brought up and then there is a counter-article (11 Qs was a response I originally sent to a web site; they said submit a short response in the same style as the original article (i.e., questions) and they might post it...never got any response...anyhow) if you want to look at them there are 6 Questions which will make you think, if nothing else, and answers to alot of the main objections to Calvinism. There are also lots of other stuffs like reductions of different Atheistic positions to absurdity, etc.
Monkeesage I note you used John Gill as conformation to some of your other believes, as is good and right . Please hear him out on the Romans issue
John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they, have not
believed?
&c.] The apostle having observed, that whoever, Jew or Gentile, believe in the Lord and call upon his name, shall be saved; and that the same Lord was ready and willing to dispense his grace, without any difference to them; suggests, that it was therefore absolutely necessary, that the Gospel should be preached to the Gentiles, as well as to the Jews; that it was the will of God it should be; that what he and others did, was by a divine commission; that they were sent by the Lord to preach the Gospel to them; that hearing they might believe, and so call upon the name of the Lord, and be saved; and therefore the Jews ought not to blame them for so doing, for there was a real necessity for it, since there can be no true calling upon God without faith, no faith without hearing, no hearing without preaching, and no preaching without a divine mission. The first of these is signified by this interrogation. Every man calls upon the God he believes in, and him only; this has been the practice of all men, in all nations; such as have not believed in God and Christ, do not call upon them; it is true indeed, there may be an external invocation of them, where there is no true faith; but then this is not calling upon them in truth and sincerity; as is their faith, so is their calling upon them; as the one is historical, the other is only external; there is no true invocation without faith, or any that is acceptable to God, or of any avail to men; for calling on the name of the Lord, as it ought to be practised in all religious worship, so it includes and every part of worship as done in faith:
and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
the meaning is, that there is no faith in Christ without hearing of him; as it is in human, so in divine faith, there may be believing without seeing, but not without hearing; so we believe that there were such men as Alexander and Julius Caesar, and other persons now in being, though we never saw them, having heard of them, or had a report made of them, which we have reason to give credit to; so there may be, and is faith in Christ without seeing him with our bodily eyes, though not without hearing of him; for of an unheard of person, there can be no faith in him, because no exercise of thought about him. This is to be understood of outward hearing of the word, and of adult persons only; for that, infants may have the grace of regeneration, and so faith wrought in them by the Spirit of God, without hearing the word, is not to be denied; since as they are capable of the principles of corruption, why not of grace? and also of such persons as have the right and free exercise of the faculties of hearing and speaking, and not of such who never could hear, and speak; for as the Spirit works where, and how he pleases, so he can work faith in the hearts of such persons who never heard the word, and enable them to exercise it on the proper object, and cause them secretly to call upon the name of the Lord, with groans which cannot be uttered. Moreover, this is to be, understood of the ordinary way and means of believing; for though God can, and sometimes does work by other means, and even without any, yet his usual way and method is, to bring men to faith and repentance by the hearing of the word:
and how shall they hear without a preacher?
or there is no hearing without, preaching; there may be reading without it, and this ought to be where there is preaching, to see that what is preached is agreeably to the Scriptures; but there is no hearing the word explained without preaching; explaining the word is preaching. There is no hearing of Christ, and salvation by him, without the preaching of the Gospel; the usual and ordinary way of hearing from God, and of Christ, is by the ministry of the word: this shows not only the necessity and usefulness of the Gospel ministry, but also points out the subject matter of it, which is Christ, and him crucified. They that preach ought to preach concerning the person of Christ, his offices, grace, righteousness, blood, sacrifice and satisfaction, otherwise men may hear the preacher, and not hear Christ.
(clearly siding with me on the matter wouldn't you say?)
Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
Gal 5:1 With freedom (th eleuqeriai). Rather dative case instead of instrumental, "for freedom," "for the (article) freedom that belongs to us children of the freewoman" (Genesis 4:31). Did Christ set us free (hmaß Cristoß hleuqerwsen). Effective aorist active indicative of eleuqerow (from ercomai, to go, go free). Stand fast therefore (sthkete oun). See on Mark 3:31; 1 Corinthians 16:13 for this late word from perfect stem of isthmi, "keep on standing therefore," "stay free since Christ set you free." Be not entangled again (mh palin enecesqe). "Stop being held in by a yoke of bondage." Common word for ensnare by trap. The Judaizers were trying to lasso the Galatians for the old yoke of Judaism.
(Monkee, he, like me is contending they are saved.)
Gal 5:2 I Paul (egw Pauloß). Asserts all his personal and apostolic authority. For both words see also 1 Thessalonians 2:16; 2 Corinthians 10:1; Colossians 1:23; Ephesians 3:1. If ye receive circumcision (ean peritemnhsqe). Condition of third class and present passive subjunctive, a supposable case, but with terrible consequences, for they will make circumcision a condition of salvation. In that case Christ will help them not at all.
Gal 5:3 A debtor (opeilethß). Common word from opeilw, to owe for one who has assumed an obligation. See on Matthew 6:12. See Galatians 3:10. He takes the curse on himself.
Gal 5:4
Ye are severed from Christ (kathrghqhte apo Cristou). First aorist passive of katargew, to make null and void as in Romans 7:2,6. Who would be justified by the law (oitineß en nomwi dikaiousqe). Present passive conative indicative, "ye who are trying to be justified in the law." Ye are fallen away from grace (thß caritoß exepesate). Second aorist active indicative of ekpiptw (with a variable vowel of the first aorist) and followed by the ablative case. "Ye did fall out of grace," "ye left the sphere of grace in Christ and took your stand in the sphere of law" as your hope of salvation. Paul does not mince words and carries the logic to the end of the course. He is not, of course, speaking of occasional sins, but he has in mind a far more serious matter, that of substituting law for Christ as the agent in salvation.
("ye left the sphere of grace in Christ and took your stand in the sphere of law" as your hope of salvation.) To me he is clearly showing them to have left the grace of Christ and are trying to substituted the law for Christ as the agent in salvation. Again, a source you have used before I believe>?
Re: Calvinism
(Monkee I mean this, he is clearly is talking to those that are of God "saved" because that believed on him... calling them the salt of the world. then warns them about losing that faith they hold. mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.)"
Where did you ever get the idea that salt = faith? Lampstands, light, etc. is representative of the Holy Spirit all through the Bible, salt is never used. The light cannot be hid--the faith inspired by the Holy Spirit. The way they impacted the world (which is wasting away) is salt, they are a preservative (look at the US in contrast with other nations which were no built on Christians principles), if they stop preserving and become like the world in their methods, assumptions, etc. then where is the whole purpose of having been made salt? Where is the preserving factor--gone--though the light cannot be hid? I see no reason to connect the salt "losing its savor" with the believer losing salvation.
(5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.)
MonkeeSage I note you leave off the last part of the verse then ask "I see no reason to connect the salt "losing its savor" with the believer losing salvation." 'it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men' goes right in hand with losing ones salvation, if your not even good enough to server God on earth as a witness, if your not will to server God on earth and let your light shine, if you have lost your savor, you are good for nothing... and are to be cast out." Luke 9:6 No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looketh back is fit for the kingdom of God... having put his hand to the plow = servant of God and... and looketh back is fit for the kingdom of God = ones that didn't hold steadfast to the faith.
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
That verse alone shows the need for the word to be preached and why the need if the elect are stamped and sealed and not able to lose that seal? There would be no need to preach the word to the lost, either they are doomed from the start or saved from the start."
I've alrady answered this charge, if you don't acknowledge my answers that is misrepresentation. Mabye you missed it, so let me repost: obviously I felt it was wanting or not thoroughly explained to convince me the verse means nothing more then it says)
MonkeeSage you write:This doesn't make any sense to me...
2 Peter 1:2-4 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
ye might be partakers--] The reader, too, Peter includes;
(Right there, MIGHT BE partakers, not YOU are partakers but might be... leaving Calvinism wanting, they might or could be partakers or might not be.)
re: Either Christ's death saves or it doesn't, if it does and it is applied to every human being ever, then every human being ever is saved. The only alternative is that it does not actually save unless man does ______ (fill in the blank) or believes _____ (fill in the blank), OR, that is doesn't apply to everyone.
or believes _____ (fill in the blank),
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (blank filled in)
(That does not limit it to anyone one group or elections but whoever)"
Never die? Jesus must have been confused, He must have meant "never die for as long as you exercise your autonomous will to do _____ or believe ______" :P
(Right you will never die if you keep up that faith in Him. This was why Jesus more then anyone else got onto us about faith and keeping it up... at either rate it show ANY that believe on Him as their savior are saved, not just a select few of the election. By your stance only a certain few from the foundation of existence are saved by the elect calling of God and the rest head for hell. Clavinism believes in a hell and if the elect are saved and no way can lose that salvation then the only souls in hell by calvinism views must be those that were not chosen as the election. You also say... As for why Calvinists preach: first and foremost God commands us to, regardless of it we understand it, but secondly, because we do understand it; God has not revealed to us those who He has actually chosen, and Peter tells us to count the longsufforing of God as salvation--salvation, that is, on those whom God has yet to save, but will. (2 Peter 3:15).
We witness because:
1) God tells us to make disciples of all nations,
2) We do not know who God has chosen to have mercy on,
3) it is the method God has chosen bring salvation to the
nations "it pleased God by the foolishness for preaching to save those who believe."
#2 is of no need, they are the election, what's it matter if you know them or they even hear the word, they are sealed already and are of the election and saved, they need not hear the preaching of the good news of salvation by the redeption of the blood of Christ, why they're already saved.)
#3 it is the method God has chosen bring salvation to the
nations "it pleased God by the foolishness for preaching to save those who believe."
(AGAIN no need, they are already saved by election, they can't help but believe.)
Daaaaa King
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 40
(3/28/02 1:59 am) Reply
Re: Calvinism
I think I've said enough to explain my position and why I hold it, and given enough resources for anyone to do further research and since these are just the same things being addressed again, I'm just going to point out there are misconceptions of my position being presented:
""[quoting Gill]...The apostle having observed, that whoever, Jew or Gentile, believe in the Lord and call upon his name, shall be saved ... Every man calls upon the God he believes in, and him only; this has been the practice of all men, in all nations; such as have not believed in God and Christ, do not call upon them; it is true indeed, there may be an external invocation of them, where there is no true faith ... here is no hearing of Christ, and salvation by him, without the preaching of the Gospel ... "
(clearly siding with me on the matter wouldn't you say?)"
No, I would not. (I'm not being obstinate; here is why I don't agree,) Because if you meant that Gill believed that fallen man is ABLE to have faith, believe, etc. only by the hearing the Word--that is has the ability in himself, he would firmly disagree with you:
"to everyone that believes: not to him that works for life, and in order to obtain a righteousness of his own; nor to the Jew only, but also to the Gentile, even to everyone, be who he will, that has faith in Christ; not that faith is either the matter, cause, or condition of righteousness, but this righteousness is only revealed unto, and received by the believer, and can only be pleaded by him, as his justifying righteousness. Moreover, this phrase is descriptive of the persons to whom Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, and suggests that for whomsoever he has fulfilled the law, in order to bring in for them a justifying righteousness, faith in consequence is given to them, to receive and embrace [justifying righteousness, sic.], and enjoy all the comfort and privileges of it." (Exposition, Rom. 10:4; Cf. Exp. Eph. 2:1; 1 Cor 2:14)
And if you meant that the Gospel is the means God uses in bringing man to a saving faith, I do not disagree, so there is no "your side" in the matter. (Remember, I've been saying this whole time that God uses means?)
"(Monkee, he, like me is contending they are saved.)"
Which is what I contended in my last post and when I said: "Gal. 5:1-4 First of all is context, is this talking about how to be saved? Or is this a warning about practice? It is a warning about practice (vss. 4:30-31; 5:13)" He is talking to people who are assumed to be saved already, not about how to be (stay) saved. How Christians are to live, not what living makes you Christian.
"("ye left the sphere of grace in Christ and took your stand in the sphere of law" as your hope of salvation.) To me he is clearly showing them to have left the grace of Christ and are trying to substituted the law for Christ as the agent in salvation."
Which is exactly what I said; "The grace of the blood sacrifice by which the Law was fullfilled. "Fallen" not in a moral sense, but in a sense of "descending" to the previous, the "fleshly." This is why Paul was amazed at their foolishness: "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:2-3)." However, I do not agree, nor think it fits the whole sense of the passage, that v. 4 is the same thing as "fallen from salvation." I believe that it means (as I said:) "Those who forsake their own duty, forsake their own mercy; those who run away from the work of their place and day, run away from the comfort of it. As far as a believer copies those who observe lying vanities, he forsakes his own mercy, and lives below his privileges [Mathey Henery]." Remember how Jonah ran away, but God was in control the whole time? (Jonah 1:17; 2:10).
"MonkeeSage I note you leave off the last part of the verse then ask "I see no reason to connect the salt "losing its savor" with the believer losing salvation.""
I didn't "leave off" anything, I quoted the KJV in whole where I quoted any verse, unless otherwise noted by three periods ("...").
"obviously I felt it was wanting or not thoroughly explained to convince me the verse means nothing more then it says)"
Then, frankly, you're being obstinate.
It's simple:
We witness because:
1) God tells us to make disciples of all nations (regardless of if we agree/like it/think it necessary),
2) We do not know who God has chosen to have mercy on (therefore must preach to all alike, and will only know them by their reaction to the preaching of the Cross 1Cor. 1:18),
3) it is the method God has chosen bring salvation to the
nations "it pleased God by the foolishness for preaching to save those who believe." (God has chosen this method out of His own good pleasure, being able to use any means He desired to bring man to faith, He chose this one).
"(Right there, MIGHT BE partakers, not YOU are partakers but might be... leaving Calvinism wanting, they might or could be partakers or might not be.)"
All this shows is that you believe that His "divine power" and that which is "given" (gifts) are not effective only conditionally enabling, that "all things that pertain unto life and godliness" do not include faith, perseverance, etc., that "exceeding great and precious promises" depend on our faithfulness, not God's, and should actually be called "rewards," not "promises." It does not negate the tenets of Calvinism. And, I already pointed out that "might" is not a conditional word these verses: ""May" being effective; "...would be able:" not conditional; "...might possibly receive...if.""
"...it show ANY that believe on Him as their savior are saved, not just a select few of the election. By your stance only a certain few from the foundation of existence are saved by the elect calling of God and the rest head for hell. Clavinism believes in a hell and if the elect are saved and no way can lose that salvation then the only souls in hell by calvinism views must be those that were not chosen as the election."
Anyone who believes is saved. Calvinists don't deny that. The question is "who _will_ believe," the answer is John 6:37-39, 44, Rom. 8:7, 26-ff., 1 Cor. 1:18; 2:14, etc.
My position says that SINCE, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Rom. 3:11-12; Cf. Isa. 59:1-16) the Father in Grace from eternity chose a certain number "out of the same lump" (Rom. 9:21) of corrupt humanity, who wilfully hate Him and rebel against Him (Rom. 8:7-8), and mercifully gives them a new heart though the operation of the Holy Spirit, whereby they exercise saving faith in the Lord Jesus. God is perfectly just in leaving some sinners to the reward of sin: "Since all men have sinned in Adam, lie under the curse, and deserve eternal death, God would have done injustice to no one if He had willed to leave the whole human race in sin and under the curse, and to condemn it on account of its sin, according to these words of the apostle: that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God (Rom. 3:19). All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23); and, the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23)." (Cn. Dord., head. i, art. 1) The amazinf thing is not that some go to hell, it is that some go to Heaven. "For who makes you to differ?..." (1 Cor. 4:7)
"#2 is of no need, they are the election, what's it matter if you know them or they even hear the word, they are sealed already and are of the election and saved, they need not hear the preaching of the good news of salvation by the redeption of the blood of Christ, why they're already saved.)"
People haven't existed eternally, so obviously, election from eternity does NOT mean that there is never a point in time where men are brought by means to recognize and and be changed by (sanctification), the fact of their salvation. God uses means. "...they need not hear the preaching of the good news of salvation..." Yes, they do, God has ordained that they do--which, as I've pointed out, is the main reason why Calvinists preach.
"#3 it is the method God has chosen bring salvation to the nations "it pleased God by the foolishness for preaching to save those who believe."
(AGAIN no need, they are already saved by election, they can't help but believe.)"
The issue of preaching is not if they can "help but believe" its what method God will use to bring them to that belief. The Bible plainly states that it is my preaching the Cross. IT IS A WHOLE 'NOTHER ISSUE OF WHO WILL BELIEVE AND WHY.
Why didn't God just cause all people to be saved? Because He didn't. For that matter, why didn't God prevent the fall? Because He didn't. We have to find out why He didn't, and we (most importantly) have to realize with Tertullian that, "God could, if He had liked, have furnished man with wings to fly with, just as He gave wings to kites. We must not, however, run to the conclusion that He did this because He was able to do it." (Against Praxeas, Ch. 10.)
I am giving the 5 points again, because I don't think they were actually thought over, (or they need to be thought-over again):
T - Man, in his fallen nature, is in such a state of moral and physchological corruption that he totally, willfully rebels against God with all the effort he can muster, and in fact, despises God for His holiness and what it reflects about his own defficient character.
U - God, in His secret counsel, has chosen a certain number out of the corrupt mass of humanity to redeem by the sacrifice of His Son, for nothing which is in them, but rather to the praise of His own Glory, according to His Mercy.
Limited Atonement:
Jesus, being sent by the Father, died for the definite purpose of paying the price for sin--making expiation by substitutionary atonement--for those whom God had elected from eternity, and for them only; the whole world of the believing; a nation born in a moment, which look on Him who they have pierced.
Irresistable Grace:
The Holy Spirit, in applying the work of Christ, regenerates hearts to faith, repentence and all things Godly, by changing the very nature from the state of corruption into a state of holiness: this is accomplished by the Power of God and is totally effective to its purposed ends--namely the salvation of the soul.
Perseverence of the Saints:
God, in His everlasting love for His elect, preserves them through this life, even through all of their folly; to present them faultless in the day of judgment, when they will be clothed with righteousness and sit at the hand of Christ; their only Lord and Redeemer.
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 3/28/02 8:05:53 am
iHs Registered User
Posts: 3
(3/29/02 7:47 pm) Reply
Re: Calvinism
Calvinism is a theology based upon Biblical teachings. John Calvin brought the doctrines held to by Calvinists to the forefront of theological thought. It is also the same apostolic teachings of the original New Testament writers. The main tenets of Calvinism sometimes vary significantly from other theological positions.
The beginning point of Calvinistic theology is the belief of total depravity. The unregenerate man is dead in his sins. Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel. The man without knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ. This is in direct conflict with most other religious beliefs that state a man must earn his salvations through good works.
Unconditional Election is the doctrine, which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to the knowledge of himself. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and simply left the unregenerate free to continue in his sinful ways. He has done this act before the foundations of the world. This is in direct conflict with theologies that state man wills God to save the by mans choice.
Limited Atonement is a doctrine stating that Christ died only for those who would believe. The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save. Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all. Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian”.
Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. This teaching is strictly opposed to theologies that state that Jesus’ death rendered salvation as only a potential end, necessary of mans will to accomplish it.
The result of God's irresistible grace is the certain response by the elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit, when the evangelist or minister of the Word of God gives the outward call. Christ, himself, teaches that all whom God has elected will come to a knowledge of him. Men come to Christ in salvation when the Father calls them, and the very Spirit of God leads God's beloved to repentance. What a comfort it is to know that the gospel of Christ will penetrate our hard, sinful hearts and wondrously save us through the gracious inward call of the Holy Spirit! What joy we possess in knowing that God’s plans are absolute and his will is sovereign. This is in contrast to some modern theologies stating that God approaches all men and awaits their answer in working his plans.
Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine, which states that the saints will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. The work of sanctification, which God has brought about in his elect, will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life. Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the last day. The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ's promise that he will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in working his sovereign plan for all who will believe. The doctrine of perseverance is the basic opposite of theologies that state man may choose day to day is he is saved or not.
We see that the doctrine of Calvinism can be represented by the acronym TULIP;
Total Depravity: (Total Inability):
Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will.
Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:1).
This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ. (Ephesians 2:1-5).
Unconditional Election:
Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel.
God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4- .
This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-1 . Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve.
Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace.
This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (I Peter 2:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.
Limited Atonement: (Particular Redemption):
Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9). Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:2 .
Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25). This doctrine often finds many objections, mostly from those who think that Limited Atonement does damage to evangelism. We have already seen that Christ will not lose any that the father has given to him (John 6:37).
Christ's death was not a death of potential atonement for all people. Believing that Jesus' death was a potential, symbolic atonement for anyone who might possibly, in the future, accept him trivializes Christ's act of atonement. Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners.
Christ died to atone for specific sins of specific sinners. Christ died to make holy the church. He did not atone for all men, because obviously all men are not saved. Evangelism is actually lifted up in this doctrine, for the evangelist may tell his congregation that Christ died for sinners, and that he will not lose any of those for whom he died!
Irresistible Grace:
The result of God's Irresistible Grace is the certain response by the elect to the inward call of the Holy Spirit, when the outward call is given by the evangelist or minister of the Word of God. Christ, himself, teaches that all whom God has elected will come to a knowledge of him (John 6:37).
Men come to Christ in salvation when the Father calls them (John 6:44), and the very Spirit of God leads God's beloved to repentance (Romans 8:14). What a comfort it is to know that the gospel of Christ will penetrate our hard, sinful hearts and wondrously save us through the gracious inward call of the Holy Spirit (I Peter 5:10)!
Perseverance of the Saints:
Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God's hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God's stead.
The work of sanctification, which God has brought about in his elect, will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that he will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the "last day" (John 6:39).
This my my belief also. God is sovereign, working all things to His glorification. (Prov. 16:4) He saves whom He chooses. (Rom. 9:1 Nobody earns their seat. (Eph. 2:9) We cannot discern our own depravity and need for salvation without the Holy Spirit regenerating our hearts. (Gal 5:17)
In closing i quote two of my favorite theologians;
"To suppose that the Lord Jesus has only half saved men, and that there is needed some work or feeling of their own to finish His work, is wicked." Charles Spur
"All that unreasonable advancement of reason in matters of religion which we have amongst us; the new notions men have of the satisfaction of Christ, pretending to the acknowledgement of it, indeed destructive unto it; the noisome conception of the little use of the person of Christ in religion...doctrines of the possibility, yea, facility of yielding acceptable obedience unto all evangelical commands without the aids of effectual grace, of the powers and incorruption of our nature, of justification by and upon our own obedience, of the suitableness of all gospel mysteries to unrenewed reason or an unsanctified mind, of regeneration as consisting only in the reformation of our lives; with a rejection of all internal real efficacy in converting grace, and the substitution of morality in the room of grace; with the denial of any influences of grace from Jesus Christ unto the holiness of truth; and many other opinions wherewith men even pride themselves, to the contempt of the doctrine received and established in the reformed churches of old, are borrowed out of the
storehouses of their imaginations, shall I say, or raked out of their dunghill." (John Owen VOL 7, p.7
Re: Calvinism
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
(Why show this to all men, if they all can't be saved, God is teasing them?)
Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
(be made for all men. Why pray for them if they can't be saved.)
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(Who will have all men to be saved, "don't know what else to say about that, it says it all")
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. "to us-ward... thats him, you, me and the unrepentance. A calling to all and show all can repent. Also if Calvin was right there would be no need for repentance in the first place. Its a done deal.)
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (Everyman... not some, or excluding any.)
Post more later dont have much time today ihs... work on those they all show that all have a chance at repentance and salvation and none are out of context... if you believe they are please prove it...
Daaaaa King
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 56
(3/29/02 9:51 pm) Reply
Re: Calvinism
"Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
(Why show this to all men, if they all can't be saved, God is teasing them?)"
"All men" refers to all manner of men, pasin being taken as it is in Luke 11:42--which the context clearly illustrates, speaking to all types of people--aged men, aged women, young women, husbands, children, young men, servants, masters (Titus 2:1-9). If the Grace of God had appeared to all men in the sense of "every individual" then every individual would be saved, because the text itself tells you that "the grace of God...bringeth salvation."
"Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
(be made for all men. Why pray for them if they can't be saved.)"
Again, does "all men" mean every individual? No, Paul goes on (in the next verse, gee, where did that go to?) to define who he means by "all men"--"For kings, and for all that are in authority... (v. 2)" What are Kings and people who are in positions of authority? Are they types of people? Obviously. Thus Paul is telling them to pray for ALL types of people, even those who persecute them, such as Kings and people in authority, not only those who are in the Church.
WHY? Why should Paul tell them to pray for all types of people if not all individuals they pray for will come to a knowledge of God? Because "this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour...(v. 3)" pure and simple.
"1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(Who will have all men to be saved, "don't know what else to say about that, it says it all")"
And I guess "all means all and that's all." Only that is not correct. Unless a person believe that the Pharisees "tithe mint and rue and _every individual herb that exists_...(Luke 11:42)" Did the Pharisees steal other people's herbs and tithe them? Did they have magical powers that let them gather herbs from the far reeaches of the earth, and every single herb on the earth, at that? To say so would be reidiculous, and yet the same Greek word appears there.
"2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. "to us-ward... thats him, you, me and the unrepentance. A calling to all and show all can repent. Also if Calvin was right there would be no need for repentance in the first place. Its a done deal.)"
I already gave Gill's exposition on this verse.
"but is longsuffering to us-ward: not to all the individuals of human nature, for the persons intended by us are manifestly distinguished from "some men" in the text, and from scoffers, mocking at the promise of Christ's coming, in the context, 2Pe 3:3; and are expressly called beloved, 2Pe 3:1; and God's longsuffering towards them is their salvation, 2Pe 3:15..." Exp. 2 Peter 3:9
Plus, now you are being intentionally DISHONEST, which is totally unChristian. I have been telling you the whole time that GOD USES MEANS, and I made this point especially clear in my last post: "People haven't existed eternally, so obviously, election from eternity does NOT mean that there is never a point in time where men are brought by means to recognize and and be changed by (sanctification), the fact of their salvation. God uses means."
So for you to keep saying "there's no need" is a pile of horse turd. Please accurately represent my position, even if you disagree. Whatever God ordains is binding on man, even if God "could have" done otherwise. He didn't. (EoD).
"Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"
These have nothing to do with the Calvinistic soteriology; NEVER have any Calvinists believed that God derives some type of (perverse) pleasure out of a sinners death--as and END in itself. God allows sinners to die in rebellion to Him in order to demonstrate His power and justice. "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. (Rom. 9:17)" See my post on theodicies.
"Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."
A perfect example where "earth" means simply "Gentiles" as opposed to Jews only; which same sense John employs at 1 John 2:2 by the word "world."
"John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (Everyman... not some, or excluding any.)"
If He lights every man that comes into then what does the next verse mean?
"John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."
So the world is composed of men, and every man that comes into the world is lighted by Christ, and therefore the world of men, who are light by him, reject him? PErhaps you need to rethink what it means by "lights every man" in the context of Rom 1:18-21.
Why should "all have a chance at repentance and salvation"? Does God owe that to man? Would it be unjest if He didn't give man that chance? No. God owes grace on none.
"God is Sovereign in the exercise of His mercy. Necessarily so, for mercy is directed by the will of Him that showeth mercy. Mercy is not a right to which man is entitled. Mercy is that adorable attribute of God by which He pities and relieves the wretched. But under the righteous government of God no one is wretched who does not deserve to be so. The objects of mercy, then, are those who are miserable, and all misery is the result of sin, hence the miserable are deserving of punishment not mercy. To speak of deserving mercy is a contradiction of terms." A.W. Pink, "The Sovereignty of God," Chapter 1. - www.reformed.org/books/pink/index.html
Re: Calvinism
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
MonkeeSage means just that, all men. Yor acting like God didn't get the word right to the english speaking masses... as if one can't understand the bible unless he knows greek and herbrew... and your answer was wanting and nothing more then an opinion my dear brother. Second "bringeth salvation" does not mean all will get salvation, just that it comes from God.)
Again, does "all men" mean every individual? No, Paul goes on (in the next verse, gee, where did that go to?) to define who he means by "all men"--"For kings, and for all that are in authority... (v. 2)" What are Kings and people who are in positions of authority? Are they types of people? Obviously. Thus Paul is telling them to pray for ALL types of people, even those who persecute them, such as Kings and people in authority, not only those who are in the Church.
(Thats right pray for all men. And then he names them all. Paul himself was a persecuted and knows that all men could be saved, all.)
WHY? Why should Paul tell them to pray for all types of people if not all individuals they pray for will come to a knowledge of God? Because "this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour...(v. 3)" pure and simple.
(Agreed all will not come to an understanding, BUT all are able to if they are repentant of their sins... Christ died for the sins of the world.)
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. "to us-ward... thats him, you, me and the unrepentance. A calling to all and show all can repent. Also if Calvin was right there would be no need for repentance in the first place. Its a done deal.)"
I already gave Gill's exposition on this verse.
"but is longsuffering to us-ward: not to all the individuals of human nature, for the persons intended by us are manifestly distinguished from "some men" in the text, and from scoffers, mocking at the promise of Christ's coming, in the context, 2Pe 3:3; and are expressly called beloved, 2Pe 3:1; and God's longsuffering towards them is their salvation, 2Pe 3:15..." Exp. 2 Peter 3:9
Plus, now you are being intentionally DISHONEST, which is totally unChristian. I have been telling you the whole time that GOD USES MEANS, and I made this point especially clear in my last post: "People haven't existed eternally, so obviously, election from eternity does NOT mean that there is never a point in time where men are brought by means to recognize and and be changed by (sanctification), the fact of their salvation. God uses means."
So for you to keep saying "there's no need" is a pile of horse turd. Please accurately represent my position, even if you disagree. Whatever God ordains is binding on man, even if God "could have" done otherwise. He didn't. (EoD).
(Now insults? and calling me Un Christian in my questions... if the questions are to hard to deal with then just skip them. They are called beloved... and its clear by that that he is longsuffering to THAT ALL come to repentance... not just you!)
Plus, now you are being intentionally DISHONEST, which is totally unChristian. I have been telling you the whole time that GOD USES MEANS,
(Thats just a LIE MonkeeSage... a pure lie... again if you can't answer the post just leave it blank and i will understand. second WHY NEED A MEANS, its a done deal!!! The saved are saved and the lost are lost. BY your view the man in china that died in China in 35 ad is damned to hell because he never heard the name of Christ... and never had a chance... or in calvisnism there is no hell now?)
"Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"
These have nothing to do with the Calvinistic soteriology; NEVER have any Calvinists believed that God derives some type of (perverse) pleasure out of a sinners death--as and END in itself. God allows sinners to die in rebellion to Him in order to demonstrate His power and justice. "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. (Rom. 9:17)" See my post on theodicies.
(otherwords you can't explain away them verse... because the Lord wish I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? )
"Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."
A perfect example where "earth" means simply "Gentiles" as opposed to Jews only; which same sense John employs at 1 John 2:2 by the word "world."
(LOL no it doesn't, it means its for all those that wish to turn to the Lord. "Gentile translated word: ywg = nation, a people usually of non-Hebrew Earth: Translated word.
land, earth
earth
whole earth (as opposed to a part)
earth (as opposed to heaven)
earth (inhabitants)
land
country, territory
district, region
tribal territory
piece of ground
land of Canaan, Israel
inhabitants of land
Sheol, land without return, (under) world
city (-state)
ground, surface of the earth
ground
soil
(in phrases)
people of the land
space or distance of country (in measurements of distance)
level or plain country
land of the living
end(s) of the earth
(almost wholly late in usage)
lands, countries 1e
often in contrast to Canaan ) (At any rate gentiles means ALL non-Hebrew... not just SOME, they all have the chance by that!)
"John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (Everyman... not some, or excluding any.)"
If He lights every man that comes into then what does the next verse mean?
"John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."
(YES right there shows He came to ALL and some rejected Him. They were given the chance.)
NOT one of your explanations in defense of Calvinism is satisfactory. Not one and you let man teach you, not the word and you think one has to be learned by man to understand the bible...
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (AND world right there means just that WHOLE WORLD... WHOLE gentiles will WORK as well though so either way your wrong )
DONT let me teach to MonkeeSage... and I'm sorry you felt the need to insult me... and call my questions un christian. Nice
Daaaaa King
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 57
(3/30/02 5:02 am) Reply
Re: Calvinism
"MonkeeSage means just that, all men. Yor acting like God didn't get the word right to the english speaking masses... as if one can't understand the bible unless he knows greek and herbrew... and your answer was wanting and nothing more then an opinion my dear brother. Second "bringeth salvation" does not mean all will get salvation, just that it comes from God.)"
Interpreting the Bible by the Bible is the ONLY valid hermeneutic, so it's not my opinion that "pas/pan" can have the meaning of "all manner" because that is EXACTLY what it means in Luke 11:42. There is no difference in the meaning as used in Titus 2, or 1 Tim--as context makes clear. The assumption seems to be on your part; that `all means all and thats all.'
Does the verse simply mean that God is the source of salvation? That's not what it seems to be saying--though that is, of course, true--it seems to be saying that the Grace of God actually effects salvation, and the context would support that interpretation (vss. 11-14). It would seem that the Grace that has appeared is the death and resurrection of Christ (vss. 13-14), but there are some people who die never having heard of Christ or His crucifixion--how could it have appeared to them?
Titus 3:3-7 For we also once were foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared, not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (ASV)
"(Thats right pray for all men. And then he names them all. Paul himself was a persecuted and knows that all men could be saved, all.)"
Again, "pan/pas" here means "all manner" JUST LIKE in Luke 11:42.
"(Agreed all will not come to an understanding, BUT all are able to if they are repentant of their sins... Christ died for the sins of the world.)"
You: "all are able..." --- Jesus: "No one is able..." (John 6:44).
"(but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. "to us-ward... thats him, you, me and the unrepentance. A calling to all and show all can repent. Also if Calvin was right there would be no need for repentance in the first place. Its a done deal.)"
I obviously don't agree that your interpretation of the text, and I have answered why already through the words of Mr. Gill.
"(Now insults? and calling me Un Christian in my questions... if the questions are to hard to deal with then just skip them. They are called beloved... and its clear by that that he is longsuffering to THAT ALL come to repentance... not just you!)"
I haven't insulted you, not intentionally at least. If I did so inadvertently, I apologize. And I also did not call your question unChristian, I called your intentional misrepresentation of my position ("...if Calvin was right there would be no need for repentance in the first place. Its a done deal.") dishonest--which it was, and is, as you know in your heart, thus not a Christian way of acting.
Now you are trying to caricature the situation; that your questions were just "too hard" for me, and so I had to resort to "insults." I answered your question, first, then I commented on your misrepresentation. It had to be intentional unless you just ignored everything I've said in this forum--its not a matter of whether you find my position to be satisfactory, its a matter of you saying I believe one thing (that God doesn't use means, thus we can disregard all means, like repentence, faith, preaching, etc.); when I've specifically said that I do not hold that position at all.
It is not an insult to expect to be properly represented, especially regarding one's religious beliefs, and to be disturbed when they are continually misrepresented in the face of having already pointed out that they were, indeed, mis-representations.
"(Thats just a LIE MonkeeSage... a pure lie... again if you can't answer the post just leave it blank and i will understand. second WHY NEED A MEANS, its a done deal!!! The saved are saved and the lost are lost. BY your view the man in china that died in China in 35 ad is damned to hell because he never heard the name of Christ... and never had a chance... or in calvisnism there is no hell now?)"
How is it a lie? You intentionally attributed a position to me so that you could attack it, when you knew that I didn't hold to that position. And you are continuing to do so. Please stop.
"WHY NEED A MEANS..." As I've already pointing out God COULD HAVE saved everyone by simply `snapping His fingers,' He could have prevented the fall, He could also have not allowed two planes to hit the TT on Sept. 11th, etc. etc. But He did not. We don't NEED a means in terms of God's ability, we NEED a means because God, of His own good pleasure, has chosen to use means.
1 Cor. 1:17-21 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made void. For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the discernment of the discerning will I bring to nought. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe. (ASV)
"BY your view the man in china that died in China in 35 ad is damned to hell because he never heard the name of Christ..."
Look back at the first article from the Canons of Dort, you're misrepresenting my position again. I've made it explicit in my posts that no one is ever judged for anything except their own sin. The thrity-five year old man in China died in his sins and likewise would be punished in hell for his sins, period. Not because He didn't hear about Christ. Just stop misrepresenting my position, please!
"(otherwords you can't explain away them verse... because the Lord wish I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? )"
There is nothing to explain; any type of conflict you perceive is with your own misrepresentation of Calvinism, not what I actually believe. "The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil." Does God get pleasure from their evil?? NO! He gets pleasure from the GOOD, for which He allowed the evil, in order to bring it about (Gen. 50:20); as in the example of Pharoah, the good of making His own power and justice known by justly condemning and hardening a rebellious sinner.
"(LOL no it doesn't, it means its for all those that wish to turn to the Lord. "Gentile translated word: ywg = nation, a people usually of non-Hebrew Earth: Translated word.
...
(At any rate gentiles means ALL non-Hebrew... not just SOME, they all have the chance by that!)"
It means Gentiles as the verse itself defines; yes they are lexically two different words (goy and eretz, respectively), but they are contextually applied to the same object. God gave the Jews as a light to the nations (Gentiles) in order that His salvation would be known all throughout the earth (Gentiles). And, I've already pointed out that this is a totally different issue than the question of whether or not people will accept the preaching and be changed through it, and why.
"(YES right there shows He came to ALL and some rejected Him. They were given the chance.)"
A chance for what though? They all, every one of them, took the chance to reject Him, unless God regenerated their heart. But notice, again, that you automatically assume that "lighteth" means "makes salvation possible for..." (as you did with "grace" in Gal. 5:4) when that idea is nowhere in the text, in fact v. 13 goes on to tell us just why the believers do believe and become the children of God "...not of bloods, neither the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God."
"NOT one of your explanations in defense of Calvinism is satisfactory. Not one..."
I'm not suprised you feel that way since you have imagined a type of "Calvinism" that does not match the reality, and which I would never attempt to defend. However, I believe that I have vendicated historical Calvinism against the objections which applied to it. That of course, as with your thought here, is only a perceptual thing on my part.
"...you let man teach you, not the word and you think one has to be learned by man to understand the bible..."
As far as perceptions go, it seems to me that you are upset at me, because, the last part of that comment seems like kind of a low blow. I again apologize if I hurt your feelings, or disrespected you--that was not my intention (I think of you as a brother in Christ), but I'm also not going to sit on my hands when you are misrepresenting my position over and over even after I've corrected you more than once.
Exodus 23:1-3 "You shall not spread a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man to be a malicious witness. You shall not fall in with the many to do evil, nor shall you bear witness in a lawsuit, siding with the many, so as to pervert justice, nor shall you be partial to a poor man in his lawsuit." (ESV)
Yes, I let men teach me, as you do; Paul (inspired) planted _and_ Apollos (not inspired) watered. People who believe that they have no secondary authorities (or, "traditions") are the more likely to distort the Bible to match their traditions (without even realizing it), than to test them against the Bible. I openly admit mine so as to avoid that, and am perfectly willing to (and do) test them against my ultimate standard, the Bible.
I believe that a man has to be Spiritually learned (because that is what the Word says), not learned in extra-Spiritual knowledge. Just because I have studied and am studying the Word in depth, and I try to provide a reasoned explainations of my understanding along with the data that tends to support my explaination, is no reason to assume that I'm some kind of intellectualist who thinks that the "plebeians" have no right looking into the "high things." I am saddened that you would cast my position in that light.
"1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (AND world right there means just that WHOLE WORLD... WHOLE gentiles will WORK as well though so either way your wrong )"
...not for our [Jews] sins only,
but for the sins of the whole [not only the Jews who were in the word]
world [Gentiles included].
"DONT let me teach to MonkeeSage... and I'm sorry you felt the need to insult me... and call my questions un christian. Nice"
Again, I never insulted you--not pursposely, or called your questions unChristian. What I said was that your misrepresentations of my position were horse turds and that by misrepresenting my position in that way you were not acting as a Christian should. This I maintain. I hope that you will honestly represent what I actually believe in the future and not argue against a position which I do not (nor do historical Calvinists) hold to. Its one thing to be unfamiliar with my beliefs (though I provided resources just so that would not be the case), but after I have explained them repeatedly, there is absolutely no reason to ignore my explainations and act like I really believe something else.
-J
S.D.G
iHs Registered User
Posts: 6
(3/30/02 9:09 am) Reply
Re: Calvinism
King writes:
But you forgot (d) All the sins of all men that want it.
Allow me to restate the meaning of “Total Depravity”;
Total Depravity: (Total Inability):
Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being. The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:1). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ. (Ephesians 2:1-5).
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after
the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that
are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and
peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law
of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (KJV)
If the Bible is correct, the unsaved man is indeed incapable of discerning the things of the spirit. If this be the case, how then does he come to the knowledge?
If Jesus only half saved mankind, and awaits our ‘profession’, as PaperCup put it in channel one day, then doesn’t that mean we are saved by a work we do?
If God saves only those who ask him of their own free will, doesn’t that relegate sovereignty to man?
Would any Arminian please explain the meaning of this scripture? (I have read the chapter an understand the context)
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will
have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. (RSV)
King says:
"John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (Everyman... not some, or excluding any.)"
If He lights every man that comes into then what does the next verse mean?
"John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."
(YES right there shows He came to ALL and some rejected Him. They were given the chance.)
Although Monkeesage did an excellent job showing how the scriptures you posted fit into the Calvinistic theology, I will cover these myself, as I see no need to re-cover all that he already cleared up.
Joh 1:6-14 - John the Baptist came to bear witness concerning Jesus. Nothing more fully shows the darkness of men's minds, than that when the Light had appeared, there needed a witness to call attention to it. Christ was the true Light; that great Light which deserves to be called so. By his Spirit and grace he enlightens all that are enlightened to salvation; and those that are not enlightened by him, perish in darkness. Christ was in the world when he took our nature upon him, and dwelt among us. The Son of the Highest was here in this lower world. He was in the world, but not of it. He came to save a lost world, because it was a world of his own making. Yet the world knew him not. When he comes as a Judge, the world shall know him. Many say that they are Christ's own, yet do not receive him, because they will not part with their sins, nor have him to reign over them. All the children of God are born again. This new birth is through the word of God as the means, 1Pe_1:23, and by the Spirit of God as the Author. By his Divine presence Christ always was in the world. But now that the fullness of time was come, he was, after another manner, God manifested in the flesh. (Matthew Henry)
Why did they reject him? Because they did not know him.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, "And they shall all be taught of God." Therefore everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me. (MKJV)
Joh 6:44 -
Except the Father draw him (ean mh elkush auton). Negative condition of third class
with ean mh and first aorist active subjunctive of elkuw, older form elkw, to drag like a
net (Joh_21:6), or sword (Joh_18:10), or men (Act_16:19), to draw by moral power
(Joh_12:32), as in Jer_31:3. Surw, the other word to drag (Act_8:3; Act_14:19) is not
used of Christ's drawing power. The same point is repeated in verse Joh_6:65. The
approach of the soul to God is initiated by God, the other side of verse Joh_6:37. See
Rom_8:7 for the same doctrine and use of oude dunatai like oudeiv dunatai here.
(Robertson’s Word Pictures)
We must be drawn first. Does God draw all men? Is Wesley correct in thinking God attempts to draw all mankind, but fails for most? Does Christ plead with every individual, in earnest, trying to convince them to accept salvation, so we have to do everything we can to help Him 'win souls'; by misleading people, and using 'seeker friendly' systems, or whatever means is necessary? The Christ of the Bible has chosen some, of His own will, from before the foundations of the world that He would effectually redeem, and passed over a mass of others, which He justly leave in their fallen state.
Eph 1:3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved,
Eph 1:7 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the remission of the trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,
Eph 1:8 in which He did abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
Eph 1:9 having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself,
(YLT)
I hope we can get past the insults, and the debate tactics used in most debate channels.
Take time to address the other guy’s arguments. No need to re-post, attack individuals, Or continue to post arguments that do not address the other guy’s issues. Are we here to debate, or are we here to simply post sides and never address the deeper theological aspects?
.
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