Can all men be saved or was Calvin right?
Doomed from the get go? Rom Chap 9?
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 12
(3/24/02 1:16 am) Reply
Re: Can all men be saved or was Calvin right?
"Some persons love the doctrine of universal atonement because they say, "It is so beautiful. It is a lovely idea that Christ should have died for all men; it commends itself," they say, "to the instincts of humanity; there is something in it full of joy and beauty." I admit there is, but beauty may be often associated with falsehood. There is much which I might admire in the theory of universal redemption, but I will just show what the supposition necessarily involves. If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were lost before He died. If the doctrine be true, that He died for all men, then He died for some who were in hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins. Once again, if it was Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed, for we have His own testimony that there is a lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, and into that pit of woe have been cast some of the very persons who, according to the theory of universal redemption, were bought with His blood. That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Saviour died for men who were or are in hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. To imagine for a moment that He was the Substitute for all the sons of men, and that God, having first punished the Substitute, afterwards punished the sinners themselves, seems to conflict with all my ideas of Divine justice. That Christ should offer an atonement and satisfaction for the sins of all men, and that afterwards some of those very men should be punished for the sins for which Christ had already atoned, appears to me to be the most monstrous iniquity that could ever have been imputed to Saturn, to Janus, to the goddess of the Thugs, or to the most diabolical heathen deities. God forbid that we should ever think thus of Jehovah, the just and wise and good!"
Re: Can all men be saved or was Calvin right?
MonkeeSage you write:That Christ should offer an atonement and satisfaction for the sins of all men, and that afterwards some of those very men should be punished for the sins for which Christ had already atoned, appears to me to be the most monstrous iniquity that could ever have been imputed to Saturn, to Janus, to the goddess of the Thugs, or to the most diabolical heathen deities. God forbid that we should ever think thus of Jehovah, the just and wise and good!"
Re: But isn't it just the opposite. Here you have a stance that says God has made it possible for some souls to go to heaven and some souls to go to hell. There is nothing the ones can do to lose their salvation, and there is nothing one can do to keep from going to hell if predestined by Father. It also pushes aside the need for repentance, sowing seed and preaching the everlasting word. If the souls are numbered and mark there is no reason for temptations as well, for what would it matter if one dives into the temptation, if he is saved, it wont matter and if he is unsaved and shall never be saved he might as well have fun while he is here. No it seems clear also by Christ saying it is better to pluck ones eye out and be eyeless then to burn in hell, giving clear indication that one can go to either or. Also note 'What shall one give in exchange for his very soul?' Again indicating one can exchange something for his soul. In this case in fact it would be heaven for hell. Not to even take in the account that God gives some poor suckers not chance at anything at all BUT hell.
Then the other stance is all men are granted free will, and it is by using that free will to pick light over darnkess, good vs evil, Christ over Satan that one is saved. John Chapter one talks of Christ as "the Light that lighteth everyman that comes into this world." To me that means that each soul has somewhat a grasp on goodness, and goodness brought them into the world, and now they must confess that goodness with their heart and soul, and Father will bring them into the fold.
And if I'm not mistaken, wasnt Jesus preaching to those in hell during his time in the tomb?
Also note: KJV Mathew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
KJV Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Now if preordained to glory their would be no need for Christ to come, and also no need for the blood atonement, why if saved from the start?
Daaaaa King
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 17
(3/24/02 4:46 am) Reply
Re: Can all men be saved or was Calvin right?
Actually that was Spurgeon who said that, but I was using it as espressing my position, so I'll take credit for it in that sense.
"Re: But isn't it just the opposite."
It is not. What Spurgeon is pointing out is called double-jeopardy. If Christ paid for all sins of all people ever, then the Father punishes some people in hell for eternity for their sins (which Chirst paid for once already), then you have a case of double-jeopardy.
"Here you have a stance that says God has made it possible for some souls to go to heaven and some souls to go to hell. There is nothing the ones can do to lose their salvation, and there is nothing one can do to keep from going to hell if predestined by Father."
This is a misapprehension of Calvinism. It is not a matter of "nothing one...can do"--they could have faith in the Lord Jesus--its a matter of "nothing one will do." That is, man in his fallen state will not ever want to turn from sin to God, he will find that whole notion as foolishness. (Rom. 8:7-8, 1 Cor. 1:18; 2:14)
"....what the apostle here affirms of the natural or unrenewed man is that he cannot discern the truth, excellence, or beauty of divine things. It is not simply that he does not do it or that he will not do it, but he cannot.
We do not say of an illiterate that he will not discern the truth, excellence, and beauty of a poem. the difficulty is not merely in his will, but in his whole inner state. The thing is foolishness to him.
So the Scriptures do not say of the natural man merely that he will not discern the things of the Spirit, because the difficulty in his case is not in the will alone, but in his whole inner state." Charles Hodge on 1 Cor. 2:14
"It also pushes aside the need for repentance, sowing seed and preaching the everlasting word."
As I explained in another place, we preach because God has commanded us to do so, because it was His good pleasure that through the foolishness of preaching men should be saved. Repenance is not pushed aside. It is a mistake to assume that just because God is the effective cause of salvation it means that He doesn't use means like repentance, faith, etc.
"If the souls are numbered and mark there is no reason for temptations as well, for what would it matter if one dives into the temptation, if he is saved, it wont matter and if he is unsaved and shall never be saved he might as well have fun while he is here."
As we see from Job, the purpose of temptation is to drive man to see his need for God, as we are told by Paul, to see which works remain and which were wood, hay and stubble.
As for your other charge, it seems you think that grace=anarchy, "you might as well do whatever you want," but the fact is a regenerated heart wants to serve God--one who is forgiven much, loves much, it doesn't want to rebel any longer.
"No it seems clear also by Christ saying it is better to pluck ones eye out and be eyeless then to burn in hell, giving clear indication that one can go to either or."
It is better to lose an eye than your soul, and worse to gain the world but lose your soul. you definately can be lost and bound to hell, its the natural state of sinners, so I don't really understand your point here.
"Also note 'What shall one give in exchange for his very soul?' Again indicating one can exchange something for his soul. In this case in fact it would be heaven for hell. Not to even take in the account that God gives some poor suckers not chance at anything at all BUT hell.""
Consider: Psa. 49:7-9 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever:) That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.
And again, you act like God owes Grace. Some poor suckers? You mean: "...full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." (Rom 1:29-32)
These are not three poor boys who are drowning, and a farmer has to save them, these are rebellious subjects burning down the kings house, raping his wife, killing his children with evil glee, all the while the king is graciously taking some of them out of the flames and saving them; the others are deriding him and doing all they can to subvert him, and he decides to show his justice and wrath on those who are left in the flames, to let them parish in their own inferno; to lay in the bed they made for themselves.
As for free-will, here is what Jesus said:
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Pretty simple. Sinners are slaves of sin, only if the Son sets them free will they be truely free. (Cf. Vss. 34-36)
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
"Also note: KJV Mathew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."
Indeed!! He did not come to make a way, or to initiate a plan, or to be an example, or to give men a chance to be good, etc. He came to save sinners. Was He able to accomplish that? I would say yes. If you believe that man has to "work the plan" if you will, then you cannot say that Christ's death saved even one lost sinner, the most you can say is that He made it possible for God to forgive sinners if by their own faith, their own repentance, their own baptism, etc. they have to contribute. That's why that view is know as synergism (Gk. "working together"). Christ's death can only actually effect anything when we work together with it on that view.
Also, the judgment in Revelation, you have already assumed I take it, which is why you quoted it, that it means a judgment to eternal life or eternal perdition--we can see plainly from other verses in Revelation--Rev 13:8; Rev 17:8--that it cannot mean that because they are already judged for eternal life and writen in the Lamb's book fro all eternity, this is a different judgment called the white throne judgment.
"Now if preordained to glory their would be no need for Christ to come, and also no need for the blood atonement, why if saved from the start?"
Again, just because God is the sufficient cause of salvation does not mean that He does not use means. But to answer, I'll quote a patristic writer:
"As long then as the former time endured, He permitted us to be borne along by unruly impulses, being drawn away by the desire of pleasure and various lusts. This was not that He at all delighted in our sins, but that He simply endured them; nor that He approved the time of working iniquity which then was, but that He sought to form a mind conscious of righteousness, so that being convinced in that time of our unworthiness of attaining life through our own works, it should now, through the kindness of God, be vouchsafed to us; and having made it manifest that in ourselves we were unable to enter into the kingdom of God, we might through the power of God be made able. But when our wickedness had reached its height, and it had been clearly shown that its reward, punishment and death, was impending over us; and when the time had come which God had before appointed for manifesting His own kindness and power, how the one love of God, through exceeding regard for men, did not regard us with hatred, nor thrust us away, nor remember our iniquity against us, but showed great long-suffering, and bore with us, He Himself took on Him the burden of our iniquities, He gave His own Son as a ransom for us, the holy One for transgressors, the blameless One for the wicked, the righteous One for the unrighteous, the incorruptible One for the corruptible, the immortal One for them that are mortal. " Mathetes, To Diognetus, 9 (ANF1 II, p. 28)
Some of the strongest language used of election is found in Ephesians 1-2, for example:
Eph 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
...He chose us--] Persons, not a class, not a plan, "us."
...in Him--] There is no salvation except viewed through the cross of Christ, a definite number were to be saved "in Him."
...before--] Before we existed, before we had done anything at all.
...that we should be--] Notice, it was not because we were "holy" nor because we _were_ "blameless before Him" (quite the opposite, see: 2:1-3) that we were chosen, but _in order that we might become_--that is to say, the chosing is here spoken of as the means to the ends of making on holy and blameless before God.
5-6 He predestined us in love to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
...He predestined us--] Persons, again, "us."
...adoption--] Both predestination and adoption are spoken of as actions on God's part, here, through Jesus.
...according to the purpose--] God's decisions are completely free and in accord with His nature.
...He freely bestowed on us--] Again, specific persons are in view here, and the action is totally on God's part and is spoken of as being given freely in the "Beloved" (the one who is loved--Jesus). (Cf. Eph. 1:3-11, 2:1-10).
Re: Can all men be saved or was Calvin right?
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iHs Registered User
Posts: 16
(4/1/02 12:47 pm) Reply
Re: Can all men be saved or was Calvin right?
If all men can be saved (all women included), then i have a few question i want answered, with biblical proofs to boot;
1) If all mankind can be saved, what is the method of salvation?
2) If this choice is left unto man, does that remove sovereignty from the creator and allow the creation to decide?
3) If Jesus atonement was universal, does it's purpose simply fail for all the lost it was meant to be used for?
4) If God is always attempting to 'woo' mankind into a relationship with him, or is basically offering salvation and trying to show us why we need it in order to get us to choose it, does God fail to do enough?
Re: Can all men be saved or was Calvin right?
iHs you ask: If all men can be saved (all women included), then i have a few question i want answered, with biblical proofs to boot;
1) If all mankind can be saved, what is the method of salvation?
(Okay now you asked for biblical proofs, so don't come back with any commentaries on these verses please, take them just for what they say. For you are asking me what I believe are the biblical proofs)
Romans 10:9-13 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (NOW that's a biblical proof and means just what it says, no need to go get a spin doctor to tell you what that means, ask the Holy Spirit)
2) If this choice is left unto man, does that remove sovereignty from the creator and allow the creation to decide?
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. (EVEN setting a limited day you must turn to Him.)
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. (In His sovereign rule, He declares free will to change your heart from evil/sinful will, to His will, that you may approach the Son's throne to Salvation is what that verse means to me.)
3) If Jesus atonement was universal, does it's purpose simply fail for all the lost it was meant to be used for?
Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Mathew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
(Why even have a judgment if it all was predetermined, there would be no need to judge the one sent to hell, we would know why, they were given no way to atone for there sin. and the Blood of Christ was shed only for those that want it, not those that don't. They don't want it, so it's not for them, it's still a freewill choice)
4) If God is always attempting to 'woo' mankind into a relationship with him, or is basically offering salvation and trying to show us why we need it in order to get us to choose it, does God fail to do enough?
2 Chronicles 12:14 And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.
Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
(God never fails, man does.)
5) Does God owe sinful man anything?
(Owe no. Grace a way for atonement. Yes.)
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Now let me ask you five.
1. The man in china that died in 35 ad never never hearing of the Hebrew God, our Father, does this man burn in hell?
2. The child, born into sin, dies at age 5, does the child burn in hell?
3. If irrevocable fate for both the elect and the damned accrues, why even have a judgment day, it's says the saints will judge the world, and the angels, after we stand in front of the judgment seat of Christ.
4. Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
(Why would it say we can exchange our soul, or lose it?)
5. Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (How could they obey it, if they couldn't believe it from the get go? And why judge them on this? And if predestined, how is it faith comes by hearing the world? We would be born with it.)
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
1 Tim. 4:16 Take heed unto thyself , and unto doctrine continue in them , for in doing this thou shalt both save thy self and them which hear thee.
God bless you as well, and thanks
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 79
(4/2/02 12:17 am) Reply
Re: Can all men be saved or was Calvin right?
1. The man in china that died in 35 ad never never hearing of the Hebrew God, our Father, does this man burn in hell?
Of course.
Romans 3:9-19 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one." "Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood, in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. (ASV)
Psalm 5:4-6 For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil may not dwell with you. The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man. (ESV)
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (ESV)
2. The child, born into sin, dies at age 5, does the child burn in hell?
Unless God has regenerated their heart, of course.
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. (ESV)
Psalm 58:3-8 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies. They have venom like the venom of a serpent, like the deaf adder that stops its ear, so that it does not hear the voice of charmers or of the cunning enchanter.
O God, break the teeth in their mouths; tear out the fangs of the young lions, O Lord! Let them vanish like water that runs away; when he aims his arrows, let them be blunted. Let them be like the snail that dissolves into slime, like the stillborn child who never sees the sun. (ESV)
3. If irrevocable fate for both the elect and the damned accrues, why even have a judgment day, it's says the saints will judge the world, and the angels, after we stand in front of the judgment seat of Christ.
The only judgment spoken of for Christians is a judgment of works for rewards. Christians have already been judged for salvation in Christ on the Cross (Col. 2:13-14). As for why the wicked ("whose names were not written in the book of life" Rev. 13:8, 17:8) will be judged, because God has revealed Himself as a magistrate; He will hold a trial, He will review the case, then He will make a forensic declaration of guilt. Why? Because that's the way He will do it, that's all I know.
4. Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
(Why would it say we can exchange our soul, or lose it?)
Uhh...it's a rhetorical question, it means there is nothing one can give in exchange for their soul. If you want to say it means that it is actually possible not rhetorical, then you have to interpret Paul, when he says "Is there any unrighteousness with God?" as meaning that God can be unrighteous, etc.!
5. Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (How could they obey it, if they couldn't believe it from the get go? And why judge them on this? And if predestined, how is it faith comes by hearing the world? We would be born with it.)
Joh 12:37-40 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
How could they obey it?
"Faith comes by hearing"--do all have "ears to hear?" No.
Matthew 11:25-27 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (ESV)
Why judge them on this?
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (ESV)
Romans 9:14-21 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? (ESV)
how is it faith comes by hearing the world?
Cause ... dum-dum-dum-dummmmmmmm *drumroll* GOD USES MEANS!!! (for the 999th time). God has predestined BOTH the ENDS and the MEANS.
"1 Tim. 4:16 Take heed unto thyself , and unto doctrine continue in them , for in doing this thou shalt both save thy self and them which hear thee."
Ezekiel 33:2-6 "Son of man, speak to your people and say to them, If I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from among them, and make him their watchman, and if he sees the sword coming upon the land and blows the trumpet and warns the people, then if anyone who hears the sound of the trumpet does not take warning, and the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet and did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But if he had taken warning, he would have saved his life.
But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, so that the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any one of them, that person is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at the watchman's hand.
I think my post called The Salvation Door also answers the question on how God does save. It surely does not limit God because of the blind, deaf who cannot see or hear the word of God.
Re: The Salvation Door
1 Timothy 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1 Corinitains 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Re: Can all men be saved or was Calvin right?
One a personal note, MonkeeSage for reasons not all to clear to me has terminated our communication process, and though I have a rebuttal to his rebuttal of my rebuttal of iHs' rebuttal and questions, it would not be fair of me to continue to address his until we have come to a understand. So in the best interest of fair debate there will not be any forth coming in the foreseeable future.
Don't let me (a man) stop you bro, feel free to post whatever you like as the Spirit teaches you, I'm not going to be held accountable for stiffling your true message with my teachings of men, post away. :)
Re: Can all men be saved or was Calvin right?
Naaaaa I think you were right the first time in not wanting to talk to me anymore bro, it was a wise choice as I'm sure you prayed about it, and were led to it, by the Spirit of God. "hey we agree!!! WOW!"
Re: The Salvation Door
Re: Can all men be saved or was Calvin right?
Re: Can all men be saved or was Calvin right?
Re: Can all men be saved or was Calvin right?
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