soundoff
Unregistered User
(4/15/02 2:01 am) Reply
Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
Here is a verse we need to investigate. This is another burning straw by those who advocate that there is no such thing as limited atonement.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
I know that some do not believe we need to study the Greek but in this case we need to check out the translations.
John Gill says and explains the problem with the word "man" in this text.
"...the word "man" is not in the original text, it is only uper pantov, which may be taken either collectively, and be rendered "for the whole"; that is, the whole body, the church for whom Christ gave himself, and is the Saviour of; or distributively, and be translated, "for everyone"; for everyone of the sons God brings to glory, Heb_2:10 for everyone of the "brethren", whom Christ sanctifies, and he is not ashamed to own, and to whom he declares the name of God, Heb_2:11 for everyone of the members of the "church", in the midst of which he sung praise, Heb_2:12 for every one of the "children" God has given him, and for whose sake he took part of flesh and blood, Heb_2:13 and for everyone of the "seed" of Abraham, in a spiritual sense, whose nature he assumed, Heb_2:16.
Also we must ask this question: If Jesus did taste death for everyone then why did Jesus tell the Father he was not praying for the world?
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
You would think if Jesus did taste death for every one then Jesus would have prayed for them.
Also
Verse 10 begins with "For" which means the following verses will explain the previous ones. In these verses the writer refers to "sons" (verse 10), "brethren" (verses 11 and 17), "children" (verses 14-15), and "the seed of Abraham" (verse 16). These terms best describe "those who are of faith," not people in general (see Galatians 3:6-16).
To me I'm more in a mind to agree with this commentary then Gills myself... especially in light of verses... such as "2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. " and others...
Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible
heb 2:2 But--We see not man as yet exercising lordship over all things, "but rather, Him who was made a little lower than the angels (compare Luke 22:43), we behold (by faith: a different Greek verb from that for 'we see,' Hebrews 2:8, which expresses the impression which our eyes passively receive from objects around us; whereas, 'we behold,' or 'look at,' implies the direction and intention of one deliberately regarding something which he tries to see: so Hebrews 3:19, 10:25, Greek), namely, Jesus, on account of His suffering of death, crowned," &c. He is already crowned. though unseen by us, save by faith; hereafter all things shall be subjected to Him visibly and fully. The ground of His exaltation is "on accoumt of His having suffered death" (Hebrews 2:10, Philippians 2:8,9).
that he by the grace of God--(Titus 2:11, 3:4). The reading of ORIGEN, "That He without God" (laying aside His Divinity; or, for every being save God: or perhaps alluding to His having been temporarily "forsaken," as the Sin-bearer, by the Father on the cross), is not supported by the manuscripts. The "that," &c. is connected with "crowned with glory," &c. thus: His exaltation after sufferings is the perfecting or consummation of His work (Hebrews 2:10) for us: without it His death would have been ineffectual; with it, and from it, flows the result that His tasting of death is available for (in behalf of, for the good of) every man. He is crowned as the Head in heaven of our common humanity, presenting His blood as the all-prevailing plea for us. This coronation above makes His death applicable for every individual man (observe the singular; not merely "for all men"), Hebrews 4:14, 9:24, 1 John 2:2. "Taste death" implies His personal experimental undergoing of death: death of the body, and death (spiritually) of the soul, in His being forsaken of the Father. "As a physician first tastes his medicines to encourage his sick patient to take them, so Christ, when all men feared death, in order to persuade them to be bold in meeting it, tasted it Himself. though He had no need" [CHRYSOSTOM]. (Hebrews 2:14,15).
10. For--giving a reason why "the grace of God" required that Jesus "should taste death."
it became him--The whole plan was (not only not derogatory to, but) highly becoming God, though unbelief considers it a disgrace [BENGEL]. An answer to the Jews, and Hebrew Christians, whosoever, through impatience at the delay in the promised advent of Christ's glory, were in danger of apostasy, stumbling at Christ crucified. The Jerusalem Christians especially were liable to this danger. This scheme of redemption was altogether such a one as harmonizes with the love, justice, and wisdom of God.
for whom--God the Father (Romans 11:36, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Revelation 4:11). In Colossians 1:16 the same is said of Christ.
all things--Greek, "the universe of things," "the all things." He uses for "God," the periphrasis, "Him for whom . . . by whom are all things," to mark the becomingness of Christ's suffering as the way to His being "perfected" as "Captain of our salvation," seeing that His is the way that pleased Him whose will and whose glory are the end of all things, and by whose operation all things exist.
in bringing--The Greek is past, "having brought as He did," namely, in His electing purpose (compare "ye are sons," namely, in His purpose, Galatians 4:6, Ephesians 1:4), a purpose which is accomplished in Jesus being "perfected through sufferings."
many--(Matthew 20:2 . "The Church" (Hebrews 2:12), "the general assembly" (Hebrews 12:23).
sons--no longer children as under the Old Testament law, but sons by adoption.
unto glory--to share Christ's "glory" (Hebrews 2:9; compare Hebrews 2:7, John 17:10,22,24, Romans 8:21). Sonship, holiness (Hebrews 2:11), and glory, are inseparably joined. "Suffering," "salvation," and "glory," in Paul's writings, often go together (2 Timothy 2:10). Salvation presupposes destruction, deliverance from which for us required Christ's "sufferings."
to make . . . perfect--"to consummate"; to bring to consummated glory through sufferings, as the appointed avenue to it. "He who suffers for another, not only benefits him, but becomes himself the brighter and more perfect" [CHRYSOSTOM]. Bringing to the end of troubles, and to the goal full of glory: a metaphor from the contests in the public games. Compare "It is finished," Luke 24:26, John 19:30. I prefer, with CALVIN, understanding, "to make perfect as a completed sacrifice": legal and official, not moral, perfection is meant: "to consecrate" (so the same Greek is translated Hebrews 7:28; compare Margin) by the finished expiation of His death, as our perfect High Priest, and so our "Captain of salvation" (Luke 13:32). This agrees with Hebrews 2:11, "He that sanctifieth," that is, consecrates them by Himself being made a consecrated offering for them. So Hebrews 10:14,29, John 17:19: by the perfecting of His consecration for them in His death, He perfects their consecration, and so throws open access to glory (Hebrews 10:19-21, Hebrews 5:9, 9:9 accord with this sense).
captain of, &c.--literally, Prince-leader: as Joshua, not Moses, led the people into the Holy Land, so will our Joshua, or Jesus, lead us into the heavenly inheritance (Acts 13:39). The same Greek is in Hebrews 12:2, "Author of our faith." Acts 3:15, "Prince of life" (Acts 5:31). Preceding others by His example, as well as the originator of our salvation.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 173
(4/15/02 4:29 am) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
"In Hebrews 2:9, we read that Jesus tasted death "for every man." The original Greek, however, does not use the word "man" here at all, but simply says, "for every." So in principle, if the meaning is not to be limited to those who are actually saved, why limit it to men? Why not include the fallen angels, even the Devil himself, and the irrational animals? (Boettner; The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination, Chapter XXII)” Quoted from here.
If we’re gonna say that “all” is unconditional then there is no reason to be arbitary and exclude satan, or fish, or snails, etc.; so we would have to say (to be consistant), that Revelation could be wrong if satan “accepts the offer” of Christ made to him. “Christ died for all [creatures]” must be the new Gospel message; preach it to the fishes, tell it to the turtles, shout it down into the pit to the wylie old Fiend: “Just repent and believe and you will be saved, because Christ died for you all, and for each and every, without limitation!”
-J
S.D.G Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/15/02 4:42:40 am
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 174
(4/15/02 4:32 am) Reply
1 Peter 2:1
"The argument of those who hold to a universal atonement goes something like this: "It cannot be avoided that Peter is here saying, in words unmistakably clear, Christ paid the ransom price even for those who deny Him." Therefore, they say, Christ died for the non-elect (those who never believe) just as He died for the elect (those who believe and are saved). They claim that this verse provides proof that Christ "died for" those who are never saved, therefore making the atonement universal. Consequently, this is used to argue against the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement, whereby Christ is said to have died a substitutionary, atoning death only for those who are actually and finally saved.
A sure understanding of exactly what is meant in 2 Pet. 2:1 may be beyond the scope of this article, but I think there is clear evidence that it cannot mean what the universal redemptionists claim regarding the extent of the atonement.
With that in mind, I would like to look specifically at the definition of the word agorazo...Agorazo means to buy, to purchase, or to acquire ownership by payment of a price. This is a common word in the Greek, yet it is also one of the great words in Scripture used to describe our redemption by Christ. Therefore, we would do well to make sure that we correctly understand its use in the New Testament. Specific references for the meaning of this Greek word are presented below:
Moulton - (a) to acquire by a ransom or price paid, (b) to redeem.
Vine - (a) to buy as in a market-place, (b) figuratively, of Christ having bought men, making them his property at the price of His blood. Note that Vine sees redeem as too strong for agorazo and reserves that thought for its compound form, exagorazo.
Thayer - (a) originally, it meant to frequent the market-place, (b) primarily it means to buy or obtain for a price, (c) figuratively, Christ is said to have purchased his disciples, i.e. made them his private property.
For completeness, let us also look at the meaning of the English word from Webster, where buy is said to mean (a) to get by paying money or some equivalent, or (b) to get as by an exchange. This is in complete agreement with the meaning of our Greek word. You will note that the buyer gets whatever is bought, thus the idea of acquiring or gaining possession is present in both the Greek and English words.
New Testament usage
This word is used 30 times in the New Testament. The New American Standard Bible translates it as buy 25 times, purchase 4 times, and spend 1 time. Of the thirty occurrences, twenty-four are in a common or secular sense such as buying a field (Matt. 13:44) or buying food (Luke 9:13). On six occasions, however, it is used of people in a spiritual or theological sense with God or Christ as the purchaser. These are:
1 Cor. 6:20 - you have been bought with a price
1 Cor. 7:23 - you were bought with a price
2 Pet. 2:1 - denying the Master who bought them
Rev. 5:9 - Thou . . . didst purchase. . . men from every tribe, tongue and people
Rev. 14:3 - who had been purchased from the earth
Rev. 14:4 - These have been purchased from among men
The compound form of this word, exagorazo, is used four times in the New Testament, twice with a theological reference to people. The prefix ex- is seen as an intensification or strengthened form of the basic word agorazo; literally it means to buy up or buy out of. Hence, the NASB and other modern versions translate it as redeem, as shown below:
Gal. 3:13 - Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law
Gal. 4:5 - in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law
Comments on the meaning of the word
It is clear that the word agorazo means to buy in the normal and full sense of the English word buy. The thing to notice is that this word, in Greek and English, means more than simply to put down or pay a price; it includes the idea of acquiring or obtaining ownership. In the normal sense, such as in buying a field (Matt. 13:44), the field, once bought, becomes the property of the buyer. There is no tentativeness or pending aspect to this. If the field has been bought, it belongs to the buyer. If it has not been acquired by the buyer, it has not been bought.
Neither can this word be depreciated to mean merely offer as in offering a price or making the price available. An offer may never be taken up. An offer may be rejected or refused. In such cases nothing is bought at all. The word buy includes the idea that the transaction is consummated. That is the very nature of the word.
This word was often used in the Greek of New Testament times to refer to the buying of a slave. It is noted also that purchasing the slave released him from his former bondage. Now a man may purchase a slave without necessarily releasing him from bondage. Indeed, he may purchase a slave for the purpose of keeping him in bondage to himself, the purchaser. However, what remained true was that the slave was always released from his previous master by such a transaction. Therefore, agorazo also carries with it the idea of release. There are times when the New Testament represents Christians as being in precisely that situation. We were bought out of slavery to sin and Satan, but we are now the slaves of Christ. We were redeemed by His blood, and therefore we belong to Him, we are His.
There are also instances of pagan usage where a slave raised the price for his own freedom. In such cases he could take the money to the temple priests and for a fee they would buy his freedom for him. They would buy him from his master to become a servant of the god of the temple, or in essence a free man. Still, there was no buying without a release or freedom from the previous bondage; and in this case there was also a theoretical change in ownership, from the former master to the temple.
My point should be clear even if my reason for making it is not yet apparent. The word agorazo does not mean simply to put down a price, but actually to gain possession of something. This is clearly the meaning carried in all the other uses of this word in the New Testament, whether it is the secular use of the word or the theological or redemptive use of the word.
Examples of misuse
In some discussions of agorazo, this simple fact soon gets overlooked. For example, Lewis Sperry Chafer, says of agorazo in regard to buying slaves, "Its technical meaning implies only the purchase of the slave, but does not necessarily convey the thought of his release from slavery." And again, "There is then a redemption which pays the price, but does not of necessity release the slave."
The first statement of Chafer's may be true, but not in the sense that he apparently means it. A man may certainly purchase a slave without releasing him from bondage. As discussed above, a slave may be purchased for the specific purpose of keeping him in bondage. This happened in slave markets all the time. The fact is, however, that the slave was released from his former bondage and became the property of the new owner. He was always released from his previous master by such a purchase.
The second quotation from Chafer clearly suggests something different, and that is the payment of the price without acquiring ownership. If this is what he means, and I'm sure it is, he has simply departed from the meaning of the word. Agorazo means to buy or to purchase, not simply put down a price.
Robert Lightner reflects the same shift in meaning in his discussion of redemption words, including agorazo. For example, he states, "Christ by His death redeemed or paid the price for sin." Here Lightner too equates redemption with the bare payment of a price, which violates the meaning of redeem. But you see he must do so, for he, like Chafer, is bound by his theological view of the atonement to say that what Christ has done in His death, He has done for all men; and since all men are not actually acquired by Christ in a redemptive sense, he must reduce agorazo to mean merely the payment of the price.
This depreciated meaning is especially evident in Lightner's discussion of 2 Pet. 2:1. Regarding these false teachers, Lightner says, "The purchase price of redemption was paid by the Lord for even the false prophets and teachers, even though they quite obviously never accept it." And again, "these individuals, whoever they are, . . . endure eternal separation from God; yet they are the very ones for whom Christ paid the purchase price."
Whatever 2 Pet. 2:1 means, it is evident that Lightner has changed the meaning of agorazo. He has given up the idea of buying with its attendant notion of acquiring ownership and has reduced the meaning to the putting down of a price.
This is somewhat surprising since elsewhere Lightner quotes with approval John Walvoord's statement that, "Christ's death constituted an act of purchase in which the sinner is removed from his former bondage to sin by payment of the ransom price." If this is true, and it is, then "Christ's death is something far more glorious than the payment of a price that may leave millions still in bondage to sin. Christ's death is emancipation. That shows beyond doubt that His atonement was only for those who actually come to experience liberty."
Regarding 2 Peter 2:1
In light of our discussion and the full meaning of agorazo, it may be worth pausing to see if we might gain some insight into the interpretation of this verse. As we have seen, those who maintain a universal atonement want to make buy mean put down a price, but that's not what it means. Therefore this verse cannot mean that Christ died for those whom He will never make His own. Once we understand this, we ought to be able to consider, a little more sympathetically, some other possible interpretations of this verse.
According to the meaning of agorazo, we must take this verse to say that God or Christ acquired some men who proved false. How, or in what sense, has Christ acquired these men? Has He acquired them by actually redeeming them by His blood, that is, by delivering them from bondage to sin? That is obviously not the case here. These men will go into eternity unredeemed and separated from God.
In the verses where agorazo is obviously used in a redemptive context, it is clear that the redemption is restricted to believers and that an actual redemption is in view, not merely the putting down of a price. Here in 2 Pet. 2:1 it is admitted by most scholars that these false teachers are unsaved men destined for destruction. They cannot have been bought in the sense of being redeemed by the blood of Christ.
The question then remains, In what sense has Christ bought, or rather acquired, these false teachers? Wells suggests that possible options include Christ acquiring them by virtue of their association with the church and their profession of faith. It is clear that they claim to be Christians teaching the truth of God. They are members, if you will, of the church. However, their very teaching somehow denies or betrays the gospel of God's grace. Christ being the Head and sovereign Lord or owner of the church may be said to have acquired them by the fact that outwardly they are part of the church.
Or, they may have been bought in the sense that their association with the church provided an escape from the corruption of the world, as specifically suggested in 2 Pet. 2:20. There we read, "For if they (the false teachers) have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again are entangled in them and are overcome, the last state being worse for them than the first." There is a real sense in which they have been sanctified, set apart from the world, by Christ through the church of which they profess to be a part.
Other possible interpretations of this verse are presented by Gary Long who agrees with the need to retain the full meaning of agorazo. Long also points out that Peter intentionally alludes to Deuteronomy 32:6 when he refers to the false teachers as "denying the Master who bought them." You can easily see the parallel, for there we read, Do you thus repay the Lord, O foolish and unwise people? Is not He your Father who has bought you? He has made you and established you. Deut. 32:6.
If this is a valid allusion, then the final phrase of Deut. 32:6 may shed light on the understanding of bought in our 2 Peter passage. Can he possibly mean bought in the sense of made and established? I think the context demands a serious look at Deuteronomy 32, especially since Peter has just compared these false teachers to the "false prophets that also arose among the people" and apparently alludes to Deut. 32:5 in verse 13 of the same chapter.
This also seems to be consistent with the fact that Peter refers to the one denied as Master (Greek: despotes) not Lord [kurios] as we might expect if spiritual redemption by the blood of Christ were in view. This word emphasizes God as sovereign ruler over the earth and the one who creates and establishes all things, a thought consistent with the allusion to Deut. 32:6. In fact, if Deut. 32:6 is in Peter's mind, then Master here is more likely a reference to God the Father than to Christ. It is an assumption on the part of most commentators that Master refers to Christ. It is also an assumption that bought refers to His death on the cross. The context must be fairly evaluated...
In conclusion...one thing should be perfectly clear...It is not enough to say He paid the price for them. Without the element of acquisition or ownership, any understanding of this verse is false." Excerpted from Jim Ellis' Article "Agorazo in 2 Peter 2:1"
-J
S.D.G
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 175
(4/15/02 4:41 am) Reply
Re: 1 Peter 2:1
“I prefer, with CALVIN, understanding, "to make perfect as a completed sacrifice": legal and official, not moral, perfection is meant: "to consecrate" (so the same Greek is translated Heb_7:28; compare Margin) by the finished expiation of His death, as our perfect High Priest, and so our "Captain of salvation" (Luk_13:32).”
Which would, of course, mean that we are infallibly saved and could never be condemned and lose salvation because of His “legal and official” “expiation.” For if all of our sins are officially expiated, that means there is nothing more for which God could ever charge us--to expiate means to vindicate from all charges [1]. I told you that Dr. Fausset had good insights at some points. :)
[1] “EX'PIATE, v.t. [L. expio; ex and pio, to worship, to atone; pius, pious, mild. The primary sense is probably to appease, to pacify, to allay resentment, which is the usual sense of atone in most languages which I have examined. ...]
1. To atone for; to make satisfaction for; to extinguish the guilt of a crime by subsequent acts of piety or worship, by which the obligation to punish the crime is canceled. To expiate guilt or a crime, is to perform some act which is supposed to purify the person guilty; or some act which is accepted by the offended party as satisfaction for the injury; that is, some act by which his wrath is appeased,and his forgiveness procured.”
(Noah Webster; Dictionary of American English, 1828).
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/15/02 5:03:30 am
Re: 1 Peter 2:1
A sure understanding of exactly what is meant in 2 Pet. 2:1 may be beyond the scope of this article, but I think there is clear evidence that it cannot mean what the universal redemptionists claim regarding the extent of the atonement.
(Well I mean thats one view... and about oh 8% - 12% of Christians would agree with that... give or take a few percents... but it seems to me again, a changing of the face value of the scripture is need to fit that aspect of it... it's like if ya don't have 5 books thicker then the bible to explain the bible, one can't understand the meaning of the bible... and its extent unless one... your a learned scholar and two you have access to these books... I myself... have held the belief that verse means just what it says... Christ brought the false prophets sin as well... as do the other verses, I don't hold anyone else at fault for what they believe and how they see the word... and hope they don't me... to me on the subject of limited atonement vs unlimited... I believe the Spirit has shown me the word as face value to be true to the fact that its unlimited in the scope that all sins were paid by Christ... and all are able to accept that atonement... but many won't)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 177
(4/15/02 6:11 am) Reply
Re: 1 Peter 2:1
The word buy, as the author of the article fully illustrated, always involves the idea of actual posession, in either Greek or English. As he stated so well; “In conclusion...one thing should be perfectly clear...It is not enough to say He paid the price for them. Without the element of acquisition or ownership, any understanding of this verse is false.”
The changing of the verse takes place only when your interpretation makes it mean “paid the price for, but didn’t ensure purchase.” The word doesn’t mean “put down a price” it means “took possesion of by price.”
As with most of the interpretation on your side of the fence (since you dislike the historical title, I’ll call you “not-Arminians” ;) the problem is taking a buzzword in a passage and then refusing to the let the passage define itself. You would say that Calvinists have to twist the Scripture to get it to say what they want; I say the same charge is levelled against you. Let’s let the Scriptures define themselves, without cavil, and see where the lots fall--this will involve investigation and what is called hermeneutics (rational interpretation)--but is the only true way to let the Scriptures speak to us, rather than we attempting to speak through them.
-J
S.D.G
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 178
(4/15/02 6:51 am) Reply
Re: 1 Peter 2:1
"Upon these expressions hangs the whole weight of the opposite cause, the chief if not only argument for the universality of redemption being taken from words which seem to be of latitude in their signification equal to such an assertion, as the world, the whole world, all, and the like; which terms, when they have once fastened upon, they run with, "Io triumphe," as though the victory were surely theirs. The world, the whole world, all, all men!--who can oppose it? Call them to the context in the several places where the words are; appeal to the rules of interpretation; mind them of their circumstances and the scope of the place, the sense of the same words in other places; with other fore-named helps and assistances which the Lord hath acquainted us with for the discovery of his mind and will in his word,--they presently cry out, the bare word, the letter is theirs: "Away with the gloss and interpretation; give us leave to believe what the word expressly saith;"--little (as I hope) imagining, being deluded with the love of their own darling, that if this assertion be general, and they will not allow us the gift of interpretation agreeable to the proportion of faith, that, at one clap, they confirm the cursed madness of the Anthropomorphites,--assigning a human body, form and shape, unto God, who hath none; and the alike cursed figment of transubstantiation, overthrowing the body of Christ, who hath one; with divers other most pernicious errors. Let them, then, as long as they please, continue such empty clamours, fit to terrify and shake weak and unstable men; for the truth's sake we will not be silent: and I hope we shall very easily make it appear that the general terms that are used in this business will indeed give no colour to any argument for universal redemption, whether absolute or contidionate." (John Owen (Dean of Christ Church, Oxford, 1652; Governer invite to Harvard--who wrote a whole book defending the orthodox view of definite atonement called); The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, [Banner of Truth, 1999 edt.] pp. 190-191).
When everyone is allowed their own “face-value” reading, there is no more Word of God, there is whatever anyone wants to see in select passages and words. there is no way to condemn errors like those found in JW arguments--why isn’t John 1:1 translated “[a] god” after-all? I mean, a “face value” reading would surely bring a JW to that conclusion. We obviously know why--because we tend to read into the Scriptures, rather than out of them. We need to be able to establish some form of valid use of Scripture--specifically the means of establishing that use are the analogy of faith (broadly defined as “Scripture interprets Scripture”), logical principles (non-contradiction, identity, etc.), lexical and word-study helps, exegetical commentaries (and expositional commentaries to an extent, though they are focused more on practical use of already obtained knowledge, not the establishing of doctrine), etc. etc. To ignore these is to danger making void the commands of God by your traditions--whoever you are.
You had better bet that the Pharisees didn’t think they held traditions of men, they claimed they went back to Moses and could find them right there in Moses; but Jesus said they made void the Law of God, and the whole reason was just because they didn’t realize what was a tradition and what was the Word. (We all have doctrinal traditions, that’s why we need set methods that our traditions can’t really touch, for looking at the matter).
As for there only being 8% of Christians being Reformed, I wonder where you got the statistic as there are usually 5-8 (avg.) Reformed Churches per state--there are aprox. 20-30 here in CA, and that’s just the US. But even if that were an accurate reflection, why would that be something to be proud of? It’s not the historical orthodox position that is being maintained against some new fad, rating in at 8%, its 8% remaining faithful to doctrines of the first Protestants and all the Protestant Churches that named the name of Christ untill the late 17th century.
If we wanted to play the numbers game then we could say that there have been thousands upon thousands of Reformed Christians all through Europe and in the start of this country, who, daily gathered to read from their catechisims and confessions, avowed the very doctrines that are so wrested and scorned today!
If anything, the move represents a return to the synergism of Rome; where Christ’s death only merits you an infusion of the Holy Spirit, if you choose to be Baptized, and then if you “work together” (syn + ergon) with that “seed” you will be given more faith and more merit to cover your sins.
The bottom line is, I hold the doctrines of the Reformers not because of anything else, when we come to the very heart of the matter, except the testimony of Scripture.
"Truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it; ignorance may deride it; malice may distort it, but there it is." Sir Winston Churchill
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/15/02 7:06:52 am
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 179
(4/15/02 8:55 am) Reply
All, World, Whole World...
Here are examples of why we can’t simply take a face value reading or limit a word to a specific usage, without regard to context:
The whole world...
Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. (Positionally extensive; “throughout” determining the meaning--“spoken of in every place” or “spoken of all over”).
1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. (EITHER: Ethnically extensive; “we (Jews) know that we are of God, and the whole world (Gentiles)” OR: “we (Christians) know that we are of God, and the whole world (Relationally extensive; “everyone else”)--I would opt for the second sense as it fits more closely with John’s style; he was not one to give any indication that simply being a Jew was to be “of God” in a sense that is contrasted with being “in wickedness.”).
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Relationally extensive, stated emphatically; “deceiveth the greater part”).
The world...
Job 18:18 He shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world. (world=“inhabited world”).
Psalm 19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, (world=“all nations” or “inhabited world”).
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. (world=“world who are not the Father’s”).
All...
Matthew 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. (all=emphatic “everybody” as we would use to the word).
Luke 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not; (all=emphatic “everybody” as we would use to the word).
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: (all=“all who were there” notice the translators gave a definite sense to the “all” here from context, but many other places they leave it ambiguous).
Luke 20:6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet. (all=emphatic “everybody” as we would use to the word).
John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all [men] come to him. (all=emphatic “everybody” as we would use to the word).
Acts 3:11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering. (all=“all who were there”).
Thus, from just this brief sampling, I hope I have demonstrated how vital context is to determining exactly what a passage is saying, and that it would be an error to choose any one reading and make it the normative as the “face value” reading.
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/15/02 9:38:05 am
Re: All, World, Whole World...
I'm not saying "all" in all cases means all... as I stated before... just the ones in question, as in context... I believe means all men are called and have a chance at the love and grace of Christ and salvation... now let me ask you this... MonkeeSage i offer you the same question I asked Topper... though the last year or so because of my leg and other reasons I haven't be out there as much as in the past... but I plan to return oneday to where I see results...
So next time I'm in down at a mission or in a alleyway... I'm trying to reach three drunks a junkie and a prostitute "lol it didn't allow the bible term for a lady of the night... lol" ... and my preaching should be... and always will be in truth... and not a lie... and a calvinist would advise me to bring the true message of
"Some of you are chosen as the election, behold what Father has done for you... you are forgiven for all your sins... you should get out of this life you have made... but even if you don't you'll be in heaven, and others of you... your damned to hell... and there is nothing you can do... your doomed... Christ never died for your sin."
I would never preach anything but what I believe is truth... its not a wise thing to tell someone anything other then the truth of the word... this would be the fundamental "milk" of Calvinist faith... that some are saved and others are doomed no matter what... "as I see it..." to try to reach others with anything but the truth would be a lie... so is that about the right message I'm to bring bro? Have I got anything wrong on them points... ?
I'm not even going to get into the judgment day aspect of it... and what to preach there... surely I would in truth have to tell them that judgment day has no effect on their election, salvation or damnation by their mere actions...
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 180
(4/15/02 11:49 pm) Reply
Re: All, World, Whole World...
Jehu:
How come when there are Bible verses you can’t handle, that blow your theological system open and leave it capsized in the water, you resort to charicaturing Calvinism? Don’t you think that’s interesting? I surely do. It tells me so much about your claim to believe in Bible alone. It tells me that you don’t want to believe in the bible alone, you want to believe in your conception, that runs counter to the Bible, and must demonize anything that stands in its way.
Next time you preach, preach the same thing Jesus did, you tell people that “whosoever will” may come and drink free of the waters of the fountain of life, and you leave it to God to change peoples heart so they actually will come and drink. You tell them that they are under the just wrath of God because they are sinners and that they must repent.
The Gospel you want to preach IS the Gospel of Calvinism, you just have added the vain notion of human ability into it, when it was never there to start with from the Words of the Bible.
1 Cor. 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
“I am aware, indeed, how, in order to render our cause as hateful to [you] as possible, they have filled your ears and mind with atrocious insinuations; but you will be pleased, of your clemency, to reflect, that neither in word nor deed could there be any innocence, were it sufficient merely to accuse. When any one, with the view of exciting prejudice, observes that this doctrine, of which I am endeavouring to give [you] an account, has been condemned by the suffrages of all the estates, and was long ago stabbed again and again by partial sentences of courts of law, he undoubtedly says nothing more than that it has sometimes been violently oppressed by the power and faction of adversaries, and sometimes fraudulently and insidiously overwhelmed by lies, cavils, and calumny. While a cause is unheard, it is violence to pass sanguinary sentences against it; it is fraud to charge it, contrary to its deserts, with sedition and mischief.
That no one may suppose we are unjust in thus complaining, you yourself...can bear us witness with what lying calumnies it is daily traduced in your presence...And yet, that which you hear is but the smallest portion of what is said; for among the...people are disseminated certain horrible insinuations--insinuations which, if well founded, would justify the whole world in condemning the doctrine with its authors to a thousand fires and gibbets. Who can wonder that the popular hatred is inflamed against it, when credit is given to those most iniquitous accusations? See, why all ranks unite with one accord in condemning our persons and our doctrine!
Carried away by this feeling, those who sit in judgment merely give utterance to the prejudices which they have imbibed at home, and think they have duly performed their part if they do not order punishment to be inflicted on any one until convicted, either on his own confession, or on legal evidence. But of what crime convicted? "Of that condemned doctrine," is the answer. But with what justice condemned? The very essence of the defence was, not to abjure the doctrine itself, but to maintain its truth. On this subject, however, not a whisper is allowed!
Justice, then,...entitles me to demand that you will undertake a thorough investigation of this cause, which has hitherto been tossed about in any kind of way, and handled in the most irregular manner, without any order of law, and with passionate heat rather than judicial gravity...
...Your duty,...is, not to shut either your ears or mind against a cause involving such mighty interests as these: how the glory of God is to be maintained on the earth inviolate, how the truth of God is to preserve its dignity, how the kingdom of Christ is to continue amongst us compact and secure. The cause is worthy of your ear, worthy of your investigation, worthy of your throne.
...Let not a contemptuous idea of our insignificance dissuade you from the investigation of this cause. We, indeed, are perfectly conscious how poor and abject we are: in the presence of God we are miserable sinners, and in the sight of men most despised--we are (if you will) the mere dregs and off--scoutings of the world, or worse, if worse can be named: so that before God there remains nothing of which we can glory save only his mercy, by which, without any merit of our own, we are admitted to the hope of eternal salvation: and before men not even this much remains, since we can glory only in our infirmity, a thing which, in the estimation of men, it is the greatest ignominy even tacitly to confess. But our doctrine must stand sublime above all the glory of the world, and invincible by all its power, because it is not ours, but that of the living God and his Anointed, whom the Father has appointed King, that he may rule from sea to sea, and from the rivers even to the ends of the earth; and so rule as to smite the whole earth and its strength of iron and brass, its splendour of gold and silver, with the mere rod of his mouth, and break them in pieces like a potter's vessel; according to the magnificent predictions of the prophets respecting his kingdom (Dan. 2:34; Isaiah 11:4; Psalm 2:9).
Our adversaries, indeed, clamorously maintain that our appeal to the word of God is a mere pretext,--that we are, in fact, its worst corrupters. How far this is not only malicious calumny, but also shameless effrontery, you will be able to decide, of your own knowledge, by reading our Confession. Here, however, it may be necessary to make some observations which may dispose, or at least assist, you to read and study it with attention.
When Paul declared that all prophecy ought to be according to the analogy of faith (Rom. 12:6), he laid down the surest rule for determining the meaning of Scripture. Let our doctrine be tested by this rule and our victory is secure. For what accords better and more aptly with faith than to acknowledge ourselves divested of all virtue that we may be clothed by God, devoid of all goodness that we may be filled by Him, the slaves of sin that he may give us freedom, blind that he may enlighten, lame that he may cure, and feeble that he may sustain us; to strip ourselves of all ground of glorying that he alone may shine forth glorious, and we be glorified in him? When these things, and others to the same effect, are said by us, they interpose, and querulously complain, that in this way we overturn some blind light of nature, fancied preparatives, free will, and works meritorious of eternal salvation, with their own supererogations also; because they cannot bear that the entire praise and glory of all goodness, virtue, justice, and wisdom, should remain with God. But we read not of any having been blamed for drinking too much of the fountain of living water; on the contrary, those are severely reprimanded who "have hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water" (Jer. 2:13). Again, what more agreeable to faith than to feel assured that God is a propitious Father when Christ is acknowledged as a brother and propitiator, than confidently to expect all prosperity and gladness from Him, whose ineffable love towards us was such that He "spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all" (Rom. 8:32), than to rest in the sure hope of salvation and eternal life whenever Christ, in whom such treasures are hid, is conceived to have been given by the Father? ...nor are we stript of vain--glory for any other reason than that we may learn to glory in the Lord. Why go farther?
Take but a cursory view,...of all the parts of our cause, and count us of all wicked men the most iniquitous, if you do not discover plainly, that "therefore we both labour and suffer reproach because we trust in the living God" (1 Tim. 4:10); because we believe it to be "life eternal" to know "the only true God, and Jesus Christ," whom he has sent (John 17:3). For this hope some of us are in bonds, some beaten with rods, some made a gazing--stock, some proscribed, some most cruelly tortured, some obliged to flee; we are all pressed with straits, loaded with dire execrations, lacerated by slanders, and treated with the greatest indignity." (John Calvin; Institutes of the Christian Religion [Eerdmans: 1998], Prefatory Address, pp. 1-7).”
How come when there are Bible verses you can’t handle, that blow your theological system open and leave it capsized in the water, you resort to charicaturing Calvinism? Don’t you think that’s interesting? I surely do. It tells me so much about your claim to believe in Bible alone. It tells me that you don’t want to believe in the bible alone, you want to believe in your conception, that runs counter to the Bible, and must demonize anything that stands in its way.
Here we go again with the YOU don't belieev like me so your a fool!! NICE shining example you set. Second there hasnt been one verse I have a trouble with... IF you would bother reading my post I said long again... that "all" doesn't mean "all" in every sense... youtr just build a strawman yet again... plus... add insults... AND its not my belief that runs counter to the bible at all... 8% Mankeesage... maybe 10% see the bible as you do... that leaves 90% of the Christians left... and WERE not to hold what we believe as truth because? you say... cause you sure havent proven any of it, fact the more i look into the matter the more I am convienced all men are able to recieve the love of Christ... you limit that love... as if God really made people to burn in hell and thats all... cripes... well next time your trying to reach a bum... just tell'em... your the election or not... if you were made to come to Christ... you will... otherwise your not called and will burn in hell... comeone monkeesage why not preacvh what you believe.... why LIE about the bible and hide the truth from them? THE preaching should be... your the election or your damned... nothing anyone can do or say will change that... so either way... your fate is sealed... )
Next time you preach, preach the same thing Jesus did, you tell people that “whosoever will” may come and drink free of the waters of the fountain of life, and you leave it to God to change peoples heart so they actually will come and drink. You tell them that they are under the just wrath of God because they are sinners and that they must repent.
(OOHHHHHHH no... It should be not what Jesus preched, but your view... and whosoever will MUST be explained to them means only the election... and that there is nothing one can do to change if he was picked from before creation or not... )
(Were not to LIE about the word!!! Well I don't anyway...)
Just anwser the quesion... lol in your OWN words... I'm trying to reach three drunks a junkie and a prostitute "lol it didn't allow the bible term for a lady of the night... lol" ... and my preaching should be... and always will be in truth... and not a lie... and a calvinist would advise me to bring the true message of
"Some of you are chosen as the election, behold what Father has done for you... you are forgiven for all your sins... you should get out of this life you have made... but even if you don't you'll be in heaven, and others of you... your damned to hell... and there is nothing you can do... your doomed... Christ never died for your sin."
I would never preach anything but what I believe is truth... its not a wise thing to tell someone anything other then the truth of the word... this would be the fundamental "milk" of Calvinist faith... that some are saved and others are doomed no matter what... "as I see it..." to try to reach others with anything but the truth would be a lie... so is that about the right message I'm to bring bro? Have I got anything wrong on them points... ?
I'm not even going to get into the judgment day aspect of it... and what to preach there... surely I would in truth have to tell them that judgment day has no effect on their election, salvation or damnation by their mere actions...
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 186
(4/16/02 5:34 am) Reply
Re: All, World, Whole World...
Who called you a "fool"? If you think I did, please show me where. That is a serious charge.
No strawman, just pointing out that you are inconsistant. In one post "all" means "all" and the "plain" reading of the passage means "all," and Calvinists have to "change it." In another you want to say that "all" doesn't mean "all." Further, you want to say that you've looked at the context of the passages that you had previously claimed were so "plain" that you didn't have to look at the context to determine the meaning!
We're not to hold to what we would personally like to be the truth, __despite__ of the testomony of the Word, because it is not honoring to God, its honoring to our stomach and we run the danger of being one spoken of in Romans 16:17 if we do.
Because regardless of how many people would like for something to be true; "...let God be true, but every man a liar..." (Rom. 3:4).
>>"...as if God really made people to burn in hell and thats all... cripes..."
If I limit the love of God (Psa. 5:4-6) which I do, as the Bible does; you limit the truth of the Bible:
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
What is more, if I believe God made some people that would be sent to Hell--so do you! God knew from eternity that __some__ would reject Him and GO TO HELL--but what did He do Jehu? Did He create them anyway?
>>"well next time your trying to reach a bum... just tell'em... your the election or not... if you were made to come to Christ... you will... otherwise your not called and will burn in hell... comeone monkeesage why not preacvh what you believe.... why LIE about the bible and hide the truth from them?"
So I lie about the Bible because you have no idea what Calvinists teach (or are purposely distorting it)? What a concept. I'm happy just to wave the smoke you're blowing in my face away.
I preach the Gospel of the Bible; that the offer of salvation is offered to all, but that because of the nature of sinners, only those who God gives a new heart, in mercy, actually will come. (Period). Anyone who says otherwise is uninformed or dishonest.
>>"(OOHHHHHHH no... It should be not what Jesus preched, but your view... and whosoever will MUST be explained to them means only the election... and that there is nothing one can do to change if he was picked from before creation or not... )"
"that there is nothing one can do to change if he was picked from before creation or not..."
Have I ever said that, has any Calvinist? Show me where.
The proper statement would be: "that there is nothing one __will want to__ do to change unless he was picked from before creation, because all hate God by their nature and are the chidren of wrath (Eph. 2:13), and find the preaching of the cross to be utter foolishness (1 Cor. 1:18) ..."
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/16/02 5:47:42 am
Re: All, World, Whole World...
Calvinism ignores the importance of man's response. In contrast, the apostle John taught: "He [Christ] came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12, 13).
There is an important order of events: (1) Christ's coming to His own (Christ came to more people than those who accepted Him); (2) the meeting of a condition, namely, man's receipt of Christ; (3) the imparting of the right or authority to become God's children; (4) the actual regeneration, which is God's doing, not man's.
No strawman, just pointing out that you are inconsistant. In one post "all" means "all" and the "plain" reading of the passage means "all," and Calvinists have to "change it." In another you want to say that "all" doesn't mean "all." Further, you want to say that you've looked at the context of the passages that you had previously claimed were so "plain" that you didn't have to look at the context to determine the meaning!
(LOL so then all NEVER means all to you!!! EVER lol or your inconsistant then... a second I said long ago that if a word or meaning does come into question, or doesn't aline with what other scripture says then yes one should... in the question of these verses they all aline with each other...and scripture...)
1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 190
(4/16/02 6:39 am) Reply
Re: All, World, Whole World...
>>"Calvinism ignores the importance of man's response."
Document how.
>>"He [Christ] came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12, 13).
There is an important order of events: (1) Christ's coming to His own (Christ came to more people than those who accepted Him); (2) the meeting of a condition, namely, man's receipt of Christ; (3) the imparting of the right or authority to become God's children; (4) the actual regeneration, which is God's doing, not man's."
(1) His own were the Jews (Rom. 9:5).
(2) The condition that must be met (which Calvinists affirm).
(3) The right of sonship that is actuated through adoption (which Calvinists affirm).
(4) The actual regeneration, which is God's doing.
The only thing is these are not given in __chronological__ order. All one has to do is look right at the text itself (not the "face value" reading, the actual text): "...as many as received Him...who believe in His name...were born...of God."
What was that that John said? Did I see it right? Yes! I did, John used a past tense to speak about the regeneration; they "were" born in the past, before they received and believed. If we look closely we will same the same thing applies to the giving of the privilege of being children of God, by the past tense "gave."
Literally:
"But as many as received Him, to them [He] had granted the privilege of becoming the children of God; to those believing on His name: which were not [born] from [descent of] bloods, neither from will of flesh, nor from will of men; [which] rather were born from God."
"to them [He] had granted the privlage" [edwken autoiV exousian]
"Had granted" is the legitimate translation of [edwken]--which is the aorist, indicative, active, 3rd. person, singular form of [didw]; meaning to 'grant ' or 'give freely.' The construction is the Specific 2nd. Aorist with the Imperfect Indicative, refering to a definite action which was already accomplished at the time this was being spoken--to them God had granted--in the past, the privlage in view-- namely, becoming the sons of God.
In this way, the extension almost becomes parallel with the Causal Indicative construction--by defining the factual source of the effect (being born of God), distinguishing that the granting of the privlage antecedes the reception. The content of the passage further substantiates this rendering by giving a detailed description of the natural causes (desent, man's will or wanting), negating each in turn, and making the whole issue to rest on God alone as the factual cause.
But, of course, this looking at the text itself is not to be tolerated, it must be called "changing" it and we have to adopt the "face value" reading.
>>"(LOL so then all NEVER means all to you!!! EVER lol or your inconsistant then..."
Uh, how does that work? Since I have claimed that all has various meanings depending on context and the analogy of faith, this charge seems rather ludicrous.
1 Tim. 2: is speaking contextually of type of men, thus "all men" refers to all types.
1 Tim. 4:10: has already been covered, and the only objection has been that the "face value" (which contradicts the verse itself) say otherwise. Big suprise.
Acts 17:30: Is speaking of types of men (specifically Gentiles, as previously only Jews had been commanded to repent, now all men, everywhere (i.e. all other men--Gentiles) are commanded to repent).
James 1:5: All means "every individual (who asks)" here, as is made clear by the context ("if any...").
John 1:7: All means "a great portion" (John the Baptist didn't preach to every individual on the earth at all times).
John 13:35: All means "all who see you" as I have never seen an Apostle or read an autobigraphy of their lives so as to test their fruit.
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/16/02 9:01:01 am
Re: All, World, Whole World...
>>"Calvinism ignores the importance of man's response."
It does because it says one... the election where made to responed... they can't help not to... thats not a responce... nor is it love... if I create a son and say you will love me, no matter what... in fact you won't be able to not love me, because you are programmed to love me... isn't love... but robot actions... and by the way that was a quote should have marked it as such...
(1) His own were the Jews (Rom. 9:5).
(yes your right, and they are called Gods elect too, YET rejected Him.)
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
(Again your doctrine is faulty as i see it... you where the one that said it was the jews that rejected Christ... his own... and yet God calls them His election... and yet they rejected Him... now your gonna say what... they rejected Christ and not God, but yet Christ told them very jews... if you reject me you reject God... again... yet the election cannot reject God or their election... something don't wash.)
But, of course, this looking at the text itself is not to be tolerated, it must be called "changing" it and we have to adopt the "face value" reading.
(face value of what the bible says as a whole... you bet. Which is everyman, sins of the world, well lets take a look at them again and see what the text as a whole is saying in these verses... )
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Not because he couldn't... but because he hath not. free will at work.)
2 Corinitains 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(LOOK it even says... not even for our sins but the sins of the whole world.)
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (Here it clearly shows he even paid the price for the false ones, that rejected him.)
Mathew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
1 Tim 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1 Tim 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (Again, the word is clear to me, who he came to save, will some reject it, yes.)
(Now how is it that I'm thinking God would have all men to be saved? And thats just the tip... of the verses... but as you say... I post to many that say the same thing... )
>>"(LOL so then all NEVER means all to you!!! EVER lol or your inconsistant then..."
Uh, how does that work? Since I have claimed that all has various meanings depending on context and the analogy of faith, this charge seems rather ludicrous.
(That just what your doing to me... because I say all and everyman etc etc etc means what it says in them verses but sometimes its clear all doesn't mean all... you hold me at fault... I just don't say "all" doesn't mean "all" unless its clear to me at face value that "all" doesn't mean "all"... thats what your doing to me... but yet when i say it about you I'm wrong...BUT because I don't hold your alls to mean what they say, you find fault with me... its like your saying... I'm right and your wrong because I say so... lol, well the jw's, mormons, catholics, sda and all the others say the same thing about both of us... one thing is truly clear to me though... God would that everyman recieve the love He has, and everyone had the chance... and as for your next verses there... you prove my point... those clearly show all not to mean all at face value... the ones right above this don't... thanks for the help!)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 200
(4/17/02 4:28 am) Reply
Re: All, World, Whole World...
"It does because it says one... the election where made to responed... they can't help not to... thats not a responce... nor is it love... if I create a son and say you will love me, no matter what... in fact you won't be able to not love me, because you are programmed to love me... isn't love... but robot actions... and by the way that was a quote should have marked it as such..."
Ahh, so God is a robot because He can never choose evil and all His desires are good? If we are robots because of God giving us good desires (which we freely act on, by our own choices), then God is a robot as well.
"(yes your right, and they are called Gods elect too, YET rejected Him.)"
Umm... no, they didn't....you really ought to Read Romans 9, it is part of your Bible.
Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
"(Again your doctrine is faulty as i see it... you where the one that said it was the jews that rejected Christ... his own... and yet God calls them His election... and yet they rejected Him... now your gonna say what... they rejected Christ and not God, but yet Christ told them very jews... if you reject me you reject God... again... yet the election cannot reject God or their election... something don't wash.)"
True Jews never did reject God:
Romans 11:2-8 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
National Israel rejected, Spiritual Israel, the renmant according to the election of Grace, did not.
"(face value of what the bible says as a whole... you bet. Which is everyman, sins of the world, well lets take a look at them again and see what the text as a whole is saying in these verses... )"
Don't you understand that there is no "face value" reading, "face value" means what you want to see in it, there is only what the Bible says, which is often deep and hard to understand, as it says, itself.
I noticed you skipped the whole point. In John 1:12-13, the giving privlege was before the becoming children, and becoming children is by faith, thus the giving privelage comes before faith.
So, tell us, are these contradictions? If not, explain them:
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
1 Cor. 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Psalm 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
2 Corinitains 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
v. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. (No need to beseech people, God already reconciled the whole world in Christ, right?)
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. (Is Jesus the propitiation for the every single person and yet He will judge them all? Do you even know what propitiation means?)
You can keep your contradictory "face value" readings. I'll stick with the whole counsel of God.
"2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (Here it clearly shows he even paid the price for the false ones, that rejected him.)"
There is no word for "paid the price" in the text. The word is bought, which means to take posession of by price, not to give a price for but not get possesion of. You really like this business of going around in circles? What, is your anti-Calvinism resource page [BibleBelievers] runing out of info or do you just like repeating the same thing over and over?
"(That just what your doing to me... because I say all and everyman etc etc etc means what it says in them verses but sometimes its clear all doesn't mean all... you hold me at fault..."
You said, and continue to say, that the "face value" (i.e. what you wish it would say) reading of the verses in dispute means "every individual," I have demonstrated from context and study of Greek that they do not mean every individual. Your only recourse has been to post them over and over and claim I don't believe that the English Bible is God's Word, etc. I have specifically said from the start that all means a number of different things. You have said that there is no need to look at context because the "face value" reading says "all" and "all means all" and then accused me of "changing" God's Word from the "face value" reading.
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/17/02 4:56:11 am
Re: All, World, Whole World...
MonkeeSage... you just said up there that the jews were the ones that rejected Christ... and the word makes it clear that the jews are part of the election, so therefore the election rejected God... you say the jews never reject God... but then claim Christ is God... and Christ himself said if you reject me you reject my Father in heaven... again this is all clear by your post... yet now when in a corner you say the jews didn't reject God.
In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Even there you qoute where the JEWS are from... Isaac... He is the Father of Jacob, the Father of the 12 tribes... and you know this... infact all jews come from the seed of Isaac...
[ 2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (Here it clearly shows he even paid the price for the false ones, that rejected him.)" (my statement.)
There is no word for "paid the price" in the text. The word is bought, which means to take posession of by price, not to give a price for but not get possesion of. You really like this business of going around in circles? What, is your anti-Calvinism resource page [BibleBelievers] runing out of info or do you just like repeating the same thing over and over? ]
"even denying the Lord that bought them" Well then how did he buy them if he didn't pay a price monkeesage...
You said, and continue to say, that the "face value" (i.e. what you wish it would say) reading of the verses in dispute means "every individual," I have demonstrated from context and study of Greek that they do not mean every individual. Your only recourse has been to post them over and over and claim I don't believe that the English Bible is God's Word, etc. I have specifically said from the start that all means a number of different things. You have said that there is no need to look at context because the "face value" reading says "all" and "all means all" and then accused me of "changing" God's Word from the "face value" reading.
{ I have demonstrated from context and study of Greek that they do not mean every individual. } No you have not... not them verse...
{Your only recourse has been to post them over and over and claim I don't believe that the English Bible is God's Word, etc. } AGAIN it seems you have problems with using the word of God... I do not.
{You have said that there is no need to look at context... } Show me where i said them words... in fact, thats just what I am not doing... and you are doing... your saying because God used "all" to just mean some in one place... it doesn't mean "all" in other places... and this is far from the case and anyone rerading these post today or a year from now can look and decide for themself... what I will say is this... the more you try to prove calvinism as truth... the more you show that it isn't, at least to me... and some others that have brought this debate up... and you might need 10 books thicker then the bible to tell you hwat the bible means... myself I need not anyone but the Holy Spirit... that is not to say I don't look at others views... on the bible... but I sure don't need to study man made doctrines to udnerstand the word of God...
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Mathew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
(So it is the Holy Spirit that teaches... and the word which I stand on... but i guess those really don't mean what they say. At any rate this is just going in circles... there is no way you will ever convince that Calvinism is truth, thats not your job... anyway... I leave it up to the Holy Ghost.)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 209
(4/17/02 10:14 am) Reply
Re: All, World, Whole World...
"MonkeeSage... you just said up there that the jews were the ones that rejected Christ... and the word makes it clear that the jews are part of the election, so therefore the election rejected God... "
TILT!! TILT!! Insert another coin to continue.
Rom. 9, not all who are of Israel are Israel. Jews and Greek both rejected Christ, Jews first, Greeks after; but not all Jews or Greek rejected Him, there was a remnant according to election, Rom. 11.
"Even there you qoute where the JEWS are from... Isaac... He is the Father of Jacob, the Father of the 12 tribes... and you know this... infact all jews come from the seed of Isaac..."
You really are determined not to listen to reason, aren't you? Try it one more time:
Romans 9:6-12 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Isaac is only used an an example of a principle, which continues to Paul's day (and ours) as you see in Rom. 11:5.
""even denying the Lord that bought them" Well then how did he buy them if he didn't pay a price monkeesage..."
Nice try, but it won't work, you can't turn the tables here. I said "The word is bought, which means to take posession of by price..."
I will be glad to turn things back around; "even denying the Lord that bought them" Well then how did he buy them if he didn't take posession of them Jehu?
You have misused English by making "buy" the same as "deposit," consult your dictionary. The same is true for the Greek word, consult your lexicon.
"AGAIN it seems you have problems with using the word of God... I do not."
Yes, indeed I have a major problem with the misuse of the Word of God, which you call "use," and the Bible calls "wresting."
{You have said that there is no need to look at context... } Show me where i said them words..."
Calvinism, post 16 from the top, Jehu says:
"Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
(be made for all men. Why pray for them if they can't be saved.)
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(Who will have all men to be saved, "don't know what else to say about that, it says it all")"
Calvinism, post 18 from the top, Jehu says:
"MonkeeSage means just that, all men. Yor acting like God didn't get the word right to the english speaking masses... as if one can't understand the bible unless he knows greek and herbrew... and your answer was wanting and nothing more then an opinion my dear brother. Second "bringeth salvation" does not mean all will get salvation, just that it comes from God.)"
"myself I need not anyone but the Holy Spirit... that is not to say I don't look at others views... on the bible... but I sure don't need to study man made doctrines to udnerstand the word of God..."
And how do you know what are man-made doctrines? How do you know you don't have any? Does that mean I'm not led by the Spirit since we disagree? Could it be that the Spirit leaves some room for disagreement and doesn't divinely inspire your doctrines or mine and that we might both be partially wrong and partially right? These kinds of questions need to be asked to grow in knowledge of the Lord, we can't just tuck them away because they are too hard.
"...there is no way you will ever convince that Calvinism is truth, thats not your job... anyway... I leave it up to the Holy Ghost."
I agree with you on two counts; (1) that you never had the intention of understanding what Calvinism teaches and so already labeled it a "man made doctrine" and thus you will never accept it, as it stnads, and (2) it takes the Holy Spirit bringing one to spiritual maturity before they can let go of all pride and pomp and pretense of self-government, and truly say "nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling." :)
Re: All, World, Whole World...
MonkeeSage they were still jews... they were from Isaac's seed or they werent a jew to begin with and therefore not the ones Christ came for... yet John makes it clear he came unto HIS own... they are his... John says, then rejected Him... and oh yea thats free will bro They had a choice... serve Christ or not... they CHOSE not to, thats free will.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 225
(4/17/02 2:15 pm) Reply
Re: All, World, Whole World...
There is no such thing as "free will." It is the invention of 16th century humanists and only exists in words. I already explained my view of freedom of choice, and it does not involve "free will." You are encouraged to read "Why do we do anything..." again.