Difficult player Type 2: Mary Sues Difficult player Types and ways to deal with them Part 2: Mary Sues
Definition:
A character whose main purpose is (although often unconciously) to fulfill the player's fantasies and wishes.
Description:
Much has been written about Mary Sues, just do a goodle search and you will find a wealth of material. so, I will try to keep this to a short summary.
Mary Sues are one major headache for admins and moderators for the simple reason that they are very common, especially in presently popular genres. After the movie "Fellowship of the Ring" was released the world of Middle Earth suddenly got flooded with stunningly beautiful half-elven Xenas who were all either engaged to or related to Legolas. Most Mary-Sues are female, but there have been reports of male versions also.
Mary Sue characters are generally characters who are so wonderful, brilliant, witty and amazing that every just has to fall for her. That is often already tated in their bio. There are some Mary Sues, though, which besides being perfecti n every aspect also have a 'creepy' feeling about them which (also as stated in their bios) make other characters feel uncomfortable and keep a distance.
Mary Sues have basically any talent in the book. Their sword-fighting is better than Boromir's, they shoot the bow more true than Legolas, are wiser than Elrond, and often can talk to and understand animals.
Most Mary Sues have clearly defined relationships with one or serveral canon characters. Often there would be the lost daughter of Arathorn II who (unrecognized) was found by elves when very little, raised in Lothlorien by Galadriel, tutored by Gandalf and loved by Legolas, and somewhere in between she also once saves Aragorn's life.
(No, this is not an exaggeration, I have seen it more than once.)
Many Mary Sue characters that you might be confronted with are character who have been created once and are used in various genres with only mild adaptions. So, the character might star in Star Wars as Luke's favorite apprentice and then move on to Lord of the Rings as Gandalf's foster child. Therefore they often do not really fit the world of the game.
As stated in the definition, Mary Sues are often idealized verstions of the author, often even to the point of the names being similar, meant to fulfill dreams and fantasies.
There are many clues which hint to a Mary Sue, and I will list some of them here:
- name: often similar to the author's name and inapropriate to the race. For example an elvesn name for a hobbit.
- family (or lack thereof): Often the Mary Sue character will have no living family. They tend to have died/got killed when she was very little, forcing her to learn how to fend for herself
- history: traumatic experiences in early childhood, like watching her family die in an Orc attack, are common for Mary Sues. Often they would also have amnesia and not remember their past or true idendity (which often is a lost princess or something).
- special items: they might own a special item, like a magical necklace, a mithril sword, or an enchanted bow
- pets: they often have pets, for example horses or birds, who are especially loyal to her and are treated more like another character than a pet
- excessive talents: in addition to having every normal character out there (except usually cooking and other doomestic skills) Mary Sue character often have another, more unusual, skill like premonition, reading thoughts or conversing telepathically
- unusual eye- or hair color: This may sound like a minor thing, and it is, but it has proven to be one of the biggest warning signs. Characters with violet eyes, or eyes with a different colorr each, which turn black when the character is angry are *very* common among Mary Sues and I have not yet seen it on any other character type.
- excessive character description: Mary Sue character tend to use 80% of the space in their bio on character description and much less on the character's personality or past.
Why are they so dangerous?
Sometimes people ask me why I am so allergic to Mary Sues. If they make the author happy.. here is the answer:
Mary Sues can turn the game to a terribly boring thing for every other player than them because they character knows all, can do everything, and often feels the danger before it is there. Because of that they tend to also solve the problems all by themselves, and fight off the wargs before other characters can even get into action.
Mary Sues are *always* by definition the center figure in a story, leaving no room for other characters other than come along and follow. Not to mention the poor player playing Legolas or Aragorn (or whoever Mary Sue's designated target/love interest might be).
Also, they are a ticking bomb, since there is in their mind absolutely no distinction between character and author, between in character and out of character. Therefore any critique to her character, even in game from some of the other characters will lead to major outbursts and troubles.
How to deal with them:
Thankfully Mary Sues are easily ditinguished and spotted from the start, so a very effective way to deal with them is to make it a rule that a bio for a madeup (original character) has to pass the admin's appraisal. Then, if you point out weaknesses of the bio or ask to make the character a little more realistic, the Mary sue will most likely leave already rather than adapt the character.
Another useful thing is to stricly disallow relationships to canon characters unless the player of said character explicitly agreed beforehand. If the character does not have a player yet, disallow it, or the relationships will simply shift to the non-player characters.
(If interested, I could use the Mary Sue test which I am using for my roleplaying groups.)
Please comment, and admins, please share your strategies and experiences so that we can make this guideline more detailed and helpful.Edited by: Lenove at: 9/7/05 11:32 am
Doh! I had still not time to reply to this post and you already posted another type! (j/k)
Ok, I really wanted to search for a couple of things, and it took me a while to find them.
The first is a definition of MS I liked very much:
Mary Sue is any original or deeply altered character who represents a slice of his/her creator's own ego; s/he is treasured by his/her creator but only rarely by anyone else. More negatively, a Mary Sue is a primadonna (usually but not always badly-written) who saps life and realism out of every other character around, taking over the plot and bending canon to serve his/her selfish purposes.
The second is a link to a very complete and hilarious MS test, available HERE. Andranneth, perhaps you remember it for I posted in ToB long ago Btw, were you the one to post those tests and examples in ToB or was another player? Ay, I would love to read them again!
On the other hand, I have not much to add since you described and explained this type so wonderfully. And I spoke a bit about in my former post, concerning Divas. The world is filled of MS, unfortunately for us, the MS-allergic. Even now that the movies are so much forgotten. But as a side effect (another one), some of them “created” canon, and gave birth to a new world of MS...
To deal with them? Heh, well, it seems I don’t need to work a lot to get rid of them, as soon as I start to tell them what they should change they leave (many times after to whine, protest, yell, insult and threat me, I might post some examples of things I have been told but then you the admins should set a password and rate this thread, considering the things some of them said to me, and this being kind...).
As a personal comment, I don’t like MS (aside all what has been mentioned in Andranneth’s post) because they “break” my Middle-Earth rp mood. How to tell you, it happens to me the same even reading the books (yes...). For example, while reading LOTR, I try to skip Tom Bombadil’s chapter. Why? Because it is an... oddity among a pretty “real” world to me (with time, Tolkien regretted to some point to have included him). It happens the same while reading The Silmarillion and I arrive to Beren and Lúthien’s chapter. Amidst a “real” and “believable” world as it is Beleriand, it “breaks” my mood to read about sorcery and songs and all that (except Finrod facing Sauron). I like the tale of that couple, their meeting, their end, etc., but, tsk... some things I can’t cope with them because then a part of me says: 'Hey, that's so much...'.
So, MS annoy me while rping not only because they powerpost or interfere etc, but because to be dealing, ICly, with those characters draws my mood away from Middle Earth and I feel as if playing AD&D. Nothing against AD&D, I played it a lot, but when I play Tolkien’s universe, I *want* to play it, without female warriors (but Eowyn), without elves bearing tatoos and earrings and two dozens of daggers, and myriads of mithril swords and mearas and magical rings.
Re: Difficult player Type 2: Mary Sues
Ah yes, I was the one who posted those tests, questions and examples. I will post them here again, for everyone's amusement and hopefully as an aid to other admins:
Here is the Mary Sue test that I use for my groups:
Characters that we will really go over with the proverbial fine-tooth comb are those that fall into the dreaded “Mary-Sue”
(or Gary-Lou, for males) category. What does this mean? The term comes from creating a character that is, essentially, YOU in the game. You project your desires and preferences into this character so much that anyone who knows you will say, “Yup, that’s Mary Sue Jones, playing the Elf named Silver Flame (or whatever).
To try and avoid Mary-Sue characters is a good thing, because in almost every instance the player and the character are one, so if you must critique the player, the character’s moods reflect it, and if the character does not get who he or she wants, the player gets very upset and either quits the game or realizes suddenly that, since the object of their affection won’t have anything to do with them, they have no purpose in the game. These characters also frequently show no interest in posting with any other character but the one(s) they especially like.
Also, usually other players get frustrated because Mary Sues tend to not “go with the flow”; they follow their own plots.
So we have put together a little test to hold your character(s) up to, to see if you are either accidentally or on purpose playing a Mary Sue. Please answer these questions *honestly*. You may deceive yourself, but you will not deceive us.
FOR EACH QUESTION ANSWERED YES, GIVE YOURSELF ONE POINT.
*Is the character named after you? Are you named after the character? (This is in most instances a dead giveaway that we have a Mary-Sue. This includes naming yourself after a canon character.)
*Is the character royalty of any type? (This means descended from Galadriel, Elrond (a relative not mentioned in any of Tolkien’s works), or of course the mysterious Elven princess from a forgotten world)
*Does the character not originally know they are descended from royalty?
*Does the character have telekinesis or telepathy? (Twins who can read each other’s emotions and thoughts count.)
*Does the character just "know things" for no apparent reason? (“Gift of foresight” counts as this also)
*Can the character heal with a touch and/or thought?
*Is the character in possession of some kind of mystical object (ring, amulet, other), either knowingly or unknowingly?
*Does the character fall in love with and/or have sex with another character from the book?
*If someone tells you he/she doesn't like your character, do you take it as a personal attack on you?
*Does the character save the day and/or another character's life? Especially a member of the Fellowship, or some other character it is hard to believe could not have saved themselves?
*Were your parents killed by Orcs?
*Is your character in his or her late teens and either unusually tall for their age or unusually short? (Example: and Elf under 6’ tall, a Gondorian who is 6’2”?)
*Would you describe your female character as "a gentle soul with a fiery temper"?
*Does your character have an atypical name for her race (An Elven name for a human) or more than one name?
*Your character is half Elf or other cross breed? (Example: Mother from Gondor, Father from Rohan?)
*Your character fears nothing but losing his / her true love!
*Your character has talents not usual for that race. (Example: You are a woman of Gondor, but you shoot a bow like Legolas, wield a mean staff, and can talk to trees.)
*Rules that apply to others are bent or broken for her. (Gondorian women do not go into battle, but your female Gondorian’s parents taught her how to use the sword and you even have a mithril coat somewhere…)
*Your character is often maverick or unconventional, maybe even more than Eowyn? (You *always* ride and fight like the guys, usually wear leggings and a tunic, but then just kill the men when you wear a dress because you are *so* beautiful!)
*Your character is able to accomplish something single-handedly that the entire Fellowship could not do (pass into Mordor unseen, kill a Nazgul.)
*Your character excels at everything she turns her hand to, OR, conversely, fails at everything she turns her hand to, but is forgiven. (She stayed in fearful hiding while her parents and village are slaughtered by Orcs, and then secretly trains to exact revenge on the Orcs, and after doing so, nobody thinks it strange that she hid in fearful hiding while everyone was getting slaughtered.)
*Your character is connected to a canon character, either through familial or pseudo-familial ties. (Is a daughter, cousin, sister or adopted daughter, half-sister, etc., of a canon character)
*Your character is unusually physically attractive, strong, talented.
*Your character has eyes of an unusual eye color (violet, amber, gold etc.)
*Your (Elf especially) character has unusually long, lustrous, wavy or straight, thick hair of fiery red. (Elves do not have red hair at all, let alone fiery red.)
*Your character has blue or white hair.
*Your character has a wardrobe that could not realistically be packed into a train of wagons, but you carry nothing but a light pack.
*Your character’s usual garb is different than anything ever seen in Middle-earth—-too revealing, too tight, or both, and either white or red or black.
*Your character has an unusual name (including spelling variations of common names, or names that sound similar to your name or one of the canon's names. Example: Cinder, Firebrand, Celebrin)
*Your character is more able than the best. (i.e., has magical powers that exceed Gandalf's, is better with the bow than Legolas, rides better than Eomer, has better foresight than Elrond and Galadriel put together)
*Your character has uncanny or supernatural abilities and skills that exceed those even found in the LOTR universe (i.e., a witch, a demon, a fairy, etc.)
*Your character has miraculously survived several Orc attacks, but your friends unfortunately got killed, so you are very lonely until your favorite character falls in love with you and saves you from your loneliness.
*Your character has a particularly traumatic past (usually had to watch her parents get killed in an Orc attack or seen the destruction of her village, and lost the rest of her family at Helms Deep).
*Your character is universally liked and/or respected, and asked for advice by Gandalf and Aragorn before every key decision.
*Your character has an excellent singing voice.
*You are a 17 year old Human, but you have mastered the sword, the bow, the stave, ride better than an experienced Rohirrim, know every healing herb in Middle-earth, speak 5 languages, and have already been in 5 battles with barely a scratch despite that your character’s father only had time to teach you skills in his limited spare time. In short, your character, especially if female, is unusually accomplished for her age.
*Your female Rohirrim or Gondorian character, who can fight like the guys if not better, cannot tend house.
*Your character left home at a tender (age 15-17) to “seek adventure”.
*Your character has been everywhere in Middle-earth.
*Your character is not a Dunedan or an Elf, and not even male, but you ride with the Rangers.
*Your character’s father had an impact on your life. Your mother either died in childbirth, an Orc attack, or had nothing discernible to do with your life other than a mention in the bio.
*Your character has no siblings, or they got killed in that darn Orc attack.
*Your character was traumatized by Orcs or Wildmen or Villains, and now weeks cold-blooded revenge on all evil, and will have nothing to do with others until you run across the Fellowship, and now all you want to do is help them Save The World, and your social skills are not a rusty as they should be under these circumstances. And you are *wise*, too!
*Your character’s father or mother was Bad, and now you seek to good to make up for it, except you seem to have inherited their arsenal of weapons, and their fiery temper.
*Because your character saved Legolas from Impending Death because he didn’t notice the Orc who was about to pincushion him with 7 arrows, you are immediately accepted into the Fellowship, and everyone loves you, especially of course Legolas.
*Your female character is of marriageable age, heading toward spinsterhood, but has no interest in marriage until they meet their true love (who is usually either Legolas, Aragorn, or Faramir).
*No matter how humble your character’s background, you have a sword worthy of a King.
*No matter how humble your character’s background, you have a horse worthy of a King.
*No matter how humble your character’s background, you have something made of mithril.
Score:
1-3: Pass, unlikely Mary Sue
4-8: Borderline Character (could go either way depending on
the skill of the player)
9-14: Needs Work
15-21: Needs Major Work
21+ : Please try again
Now, this does not mean that everyone who appears to be a Mary-Sue will be automatically turned down. If your have a well-thought out character who is NOT related to anyone, the lover or past love of any canon character, does not have magical powers and ultimate prowess with everything—we will give your bio due consideration, and if it works, you will likely get through the screening process. It does, however, mean that we are going to sift and re-sift and re-re-sift, so limit the Mary-Sue stuff and save us all some work!
Re: Difficult player Type 2: Mary Sues
Here is a List of Questions that I like to give players as a helping guide for fleshing out their characters and writing the bio:
HELPFUL QUESTIONS TO PONDER AS YOU CREATE YOUR CHARACTER:
Over time the moderators have learned that bios tend to lack certain information; parts of the character get overlooked or simply ignored in the first draft. That usually leads to a lot of unnecessary work for both the
player and the moderators, because these are usually holes
that need to be filled.
To avoid that as much as possible we have put together a list of questions that you can ask yourself while developing a character. (We are bound to ask them anyway, so it would be easier if you paid some attention to them in the first place.) These questions don't mean you must have all these detail in your bio, but you should have thought about that and reasons for what you put in the bio.
Name:
If your Character has a Nickname, how did he/she get it, and why? Who gave it?
Family:
Parents:
Who are your character's parents? How do your character's parents live; what is their profession?
While the father is frequently at least mentioned in bios the mother is often forgotten. Especially for female characters, the mother would have a big impact in life,
as a teacher and companion, so don't forget about that!
Dead parents: AVOID!!!
If you really want them dead: Why???? Why can't your character have living parents? (Sorry to sound harsh, but we found that usually parents are simply declared
dead because the player is just too lazy to bother thinking about parents)
Sibling(s):
It is plainly very uncommon for a family to have only one child, so you'd better give some thought to this. Are the siblings younger or older, and what impact did and do they have on your character's life?
History:
Think through the childhood. What friends did your character have, what kind of games did he/she prefer?
Character:
What does your Character fear?
What kind of people does he/she like? What kind of people does he/she not like?
What kind of people like your character?
What makes your character angry, sad, happy?
What does your character despise of everyday life? (nowadays
for me in Real Life it's ironing shirts)
Anything else:
What would your character's life be like if there were no war of the Ring?
What does your character like to do in his/her free time?
(nowadays it would be called hobbies)
If your character could start all over again, what would
he/she change?
Re: Difficult player Type 2: Mary Sues
And here, possibly the most amusing part, is a number of Worst Case Bios - as an example how NOT to do it.
(and honestly, I have seen even worse in real life)
In a very good (or very bad, that’s for you to decide) the moderators have put together some what we call worst-case bios, meaning please don’t do this!
But they might be good for amusement and an example of what we really don’t like.
We have three of those.
The first one is completely against the rules and horrible besides:
Name: Namarie-Sue
Nickname: Nami
Species: half elf/half hobbit
Gender: female
Age: 16
Family: killed by orcs when she was very little
Appearance: she is tall and slim and has a mysterious air that only underlines beautiful, with flaming read hair that is falling long down her back to her waist in long, shiny waves, glossy as sunlight on water. Her deep green eyes and turn black when she gets angry. She wears light blouse and tight pants, both in a natural green that matches her eyes and soft black leather boots. When it's cold she adds a purple cloak.
Talents:
Has a natural talent for languages, and can fluently speak and read all those used in Middle-earth. She sings beautifully, with an ethereal quality unnatural to her species...leading some to openly suspect she may have some wizard or fairy blood in her somewhere. This is further wondered about by her ability to communicate with animals and he fact that she has the ability to perceive dangers before she can see or hear them. She is an excellent swimmer and accomplished equestrienne, riding with a saddle or without equally well.
She was trained as a warrior, using equally well any weapon handy, although she prefers the bow, longsword, and knives.
Things he/she can't do:
It is not so much that she cannot--for when she does, the effect is spectacular--but she despises wearing women's clothing, preferring always to wear leggings and tight tunics which emphasize her curvaceous figure. She despises embroidery and housekeeping, refusing to learn even to cook. She is perfectly capable of living off the land, or killing game for her meals. She is terrrible at pouring from a teapot or wine carafe, although she can hold much more liquor than the usual elf or even hobbit. In fact, alcohol has no effect on her at all. She is terrible at lying, preferring total honestly, even though she tries to soften it if it would be difficult for the hearer to bear.
Past:
When she was found wandering alone in the Misty Mountains at the age of 2, she was wearing a tiara and a strange, beautiful amulet of gold-flecked white stone, which glows when she is feeling strong emotions, and warms when she feels cold and needs warmth. She does not know what other powers this amulet has, but Galadriel once told her that it would "be important to the salvation of Middle-earth".
When she was 3, she began to remember why she was wandering in the Misty Mountains, alone, for her village had been destroyed by a band of wandering, marauding Orcs, leaving her as the only survivor. Since then, secretly in her heart, she plans to rid Middle-earth of Orcs and all evil, and her eyes turn black at the very mention of them, and the amulet darkens when Orcs are near, and gives a tingle to her skin.
The elves who found her brought her to Lothlorien, where she grew up learning the old languages and training as one of the warriors. But soon she felt that her destiny demanded her to learn to know the world. So, when she was 14 she started to travel.
Because she is part Hobbit, she is perfectly at home in underground places, as well as the forests and open lands of Middle-earth. She has travelled widely, and because of her apparent magical powers, which Galadriel is helping her to learn to control, she has spent much time with Gandalf, trying to puzzle out the Amulet. When she looks in Galadriel's Mirror, she sees all things clearly, and sometimes helps Galadriel figure out what a vision means.
Home /Place of birth: unknown, wanders the wild on her quest to end all evil
Weapons:
A Lothlorien bow, an elven sword, three long knives, and several small, hidden daggers. But she rarely really needs them, because the amulett warn her of potential danger, making it possible to avoid open combat most of the time, and as such, many times those in power or going on perilous missions seek her out to lead their company.
Any other equipment:
A myterious amulett with magical powers.
She also has a horse, a Mearas stallion as black as the night, whom she raised from foal and only listenes to her commands
Character:
She is loyal to a fault, courageous beyond belief, and yet when goaded has a fiery temper. She is also gentle and kind, and able to encourage all those who come to her for comfort.
Anything else:
Once, when she was in great need of coming to the aid of a comrade who was too far away from her, she "flew"--apparently because she willed so hard to be at her friend's side--and actually caught in her hands an arrow in flight which would have killed her friend, had it struck. But she has never mentioned this to anyone, for fear they would think she was too strange.
The second one is actually in accordance to the rule, just. But it’s still horrible:
Family: mother from Mirkwood, father unknown except that he is/was a high ranking elf in Rivendell
Appearance: She has long, night-black hair and hazel eyes that turn black when she's angry. She usually wears red garments and often long black gloves.
Talents: Angewyn is an excellent singer and dancer, always asked to perform for evening dinners or small festivities. She has a good hand with horses and loves to ride; has learned to use the bow and the sword.
Things he/she can't do: cook
Past: When she was very joung her mother traveled with her from Mirkwood towards Rivendell to finally tell her father about his daughter. On the road, however, the small party got attacked and she was only safed by holding frantically on to a panicking and fleeing horse.
After that she grew up in Mirkwood in the house of a cousin. When she grew older swore that she would avenge her mother and started to practise with the sword that had been found half buried at the site of the attack later.
Known languages: sindarin / Quenya
Home /Place of birth: Mirkwood
Greatest weaknesses: she has a tendency to lose her temper
Weapons: a mithril sword that had belonged to someone in the attacked party and the bow
Any other equipment: the sword made of mithril with a brilliant red jewel set in the pommel.
Character: She is a gentle soul in general but can be very fierce when she encounters injustice. that's when she loses her temper. Hates evil.
And third and finally and absulute minimal bio, which follows the rules and gives all the most necessary information, but nothing beyond it:
Name: Magnolia Proudfoot
Nickname: none
Species: Hobbit
Gender: female
Age: 25
Family: 4th daughter of Mr and Mrs Proudfoot.
Appearance: average height for a hobbit, brown, curly hair and blue eyes.
Talents: excellent cook, especially good with cakes and dumplings.
Things she can't do: embroidery
Past: she grew up on her parent's farm and has been helping her mother with her chores since she can remember lately she is getting interested in marriange and luckily there seem to be several decend young hobbits interested in her.
Known languages: none
Home /Place of birth: Shire
Greatest weaknesses: is scared when she hears stories about life outside the Shire.
Weapons: none
Any other equipment: none
Character: Magnolia is a gentle soul who loves to cook for others and see their hapy faces. She loves children and is planning ot have at least half a dozen herself.
(j/k) 
Btw, were you the one to post those tests and examples in ToB or was another player? Ay, I would love to read them again!
Oi, yes, I missed to read it!
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