MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 352
(4/20/02 4:51 pm) Reply
Draw all men...
John 12:20-41 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus. And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This he said, signifying what death he should die.
The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light.
These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,
Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Does this passage teach that Jesus will draw every single individual, even though the context goes on to demonstrate that some are not drawn, but are blinded? Or does it more logically mean the Gentiles as well as Jews, such as those Gentiles who had come to worship Him?
I obviously believe that it means the latter. Jesus immediately said that His hour was not yet come to die (meaning by extension, to call Gentiles to repentence), but that when He is lifted up, then He will draw all men (Gentiles & Jews, without distinction).
The scripture repeated in john... is about Isa 6:9-10, God has Isaiah in heaven and is telling him what to pronouce to the 12 tribes... for their rebellion to him. Now MonkeeSage if you read Isa chap 1 you'll see that the jews were told and had a chance first to turn to God... then chap 2 also tells them "O yea house of Jacob, come ya, walk in the light of the Lord. Over and over they are told in the coming chapters they have a choice, a free will, to turn to Father... He goes over and over all the things that they are to stop doing, and things to do, they rejected him, but it was their choice... and with that comes a hardening of the heart... the farther ya fall the farther the climb... That was to the whole house of Jacob... do you presuppose they all were lost? Time jump to the Christ child, talking to those of that same house of Jacob "Israel... to wrestle with God." ... who knew that very scripture quite well... Now Christ warned this same house time and time again... BUT, knew very well that they had a heart of stone, and wouldn't, or scripture could not be fulfilled... but come of His last words on the cross where... Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Do you think Father heard him?
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
blessings... kj
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 406
(4/23/02 11:23 pm) Reply
Re: Draw all men...
"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
John applies it to hearers of Jesus, not to 12 tribes, etc.
Why couldn't they believe? "because"--"for this cause"--"He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart."
Blinded their eyes and hardened their heart to what purpose? "that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
Who did the blinding and hardening--people by their actions, or God? Not "He hath given over to..."--rather, "He hath..."--God.
Rom. 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Re: Draw all men...
MonkeeSage first off, Jesus came to the lost house of Jacob for the most part... He made that clear at the well, with the women... He would not come to the gentiles till first the jews rejected Him... as rom chap 11 clearly explains...
second it EVEN says who John is talking about if you would reread it in context...
John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
UNLESS your now going to say the Pharisees were not jews... that shows you to be wrong about that as well
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 408
(4/23/02 11:57 pm) Reply
Re: Draw all men...
John 12:20-41 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus. And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This he said, signifying what death he should die.
The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light.
These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,
Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Synopsis: There was a crowd of Jews and Greeks who had gathered to hear Jesus, Jesus addressed them and a voice from Heaven confirmed His identity to the crowd; but some didn't believe, even though they had heard the voice from Heaven (and seen many other miracles), because God had blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, and by this the saying of Isaiah was fulfilled.
Now, what exactly are you saying about Pharisees and Israel, etc.? and how does it relate to whether Jesus is talking about drawing all types of men vs. drawing every single individual man? Please clarify.
Re: Draw all men...
John is explaining who he was talking about...
John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
(And he even names who it is that wouldn't believe... even going so far as to say why others wouldn't confess Christ... Isaiah was talking to these same officials, just in his time... AND of the ones in Christs time.)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 410
(4/24/02 12:22 am) Reply
Re: Draw all men...
Are you claiming the one who didn't believe in verse 37 are not the "people" in v. 29, 34, and the "them" of v. 20?
That they are the Pharisees, whom the rulers that believed Jesus, but feared men, did not confess Him because of in vss. 42-43?
That doesn't really make any sense from the text:
In vss. 37-41 you have a group who don't believe and the cause:
"But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him."
Then in vss. 42-43 you have a group that believed, but did not confess, and the cause:
"Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God."
But even if those who were hardened and blinded were the Pharisees; what does that have to contribute towards the question of whether Jesus meant that He would draw all types of men (Jew & Greek, etc.) vs. draw every single individual man?
Re: Draw all men...
yes it does John even makes it clear whom Jesus was talking about...
John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
(Now look at who Isaiah is talking to... in isa chap 6, its these guys, in prophecy, and then John even says who it is that won't confess Jesus... )
John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
(This is the prophecy that the house of Jacob would reject Christ and Romans chap 11 explains why.)
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Getting late... bless ya, have to get up in a few Kj
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 412
(4/24/02 12:56 am) Reply
Re: Draw all men...
OK...so let's say it talks about whoever it is that you think it talks about (Pharisees, Jews only, the crowd of Jews and Greeks, the rulers, Jews in Isaiah's time...I'm not sure, but whoever); what does that have to do with if Jesus meant draw all types of men vs. draw every single individual man? I still don't get it.
Re: Draw all men...
Because He did tell tell them time and time again, to repent of their deeds and turn to Him, He "draweth" them as well, they just rejected Him and His calling... but it was their won free will... it was not the will of God that they should not listen to Christ... BUT after they set it in their heart to reject Christ... God hardend their heart... BUT it was their will that this be done... by their free will rejection of Christ.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 416
(4/24/02 11:39 am) Reply
Re: Draw all men...
The text is very plain. Greek proselytes came to Jesus and He said that when He was lifted up He would draw all (types of) men (Jews & Greek) to Himself, which is further established by the fact that some were hardened and blinded for the vendication of God's own Word, which if God were trying to draw every individual man, would make no sense at all to harden some and blind them so that they would not turn be saved.
1 Cor. 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
If the Cross is foolishness to some, then God is, obviously, not using it to draw every individual--a thing can't be foolishness and desirable to draw one at the same time.
"God hardend their heart... BUT it was their will that this be done... by their free will rejection of Christ."
You have turned things on their head.
"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy...Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." (Rom. 9:16, 18).
While it is true that God doesn't harden any who do not deserve it, He does it of His own freedom of choice, based on His purposes.
"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." (Rom. 9:17).
No one is saying God didn't harden their heart and John clearly says who Jesus was talking about... Jesus was telling HIS followers why others, the main dudes in the temple wouldn't follow Him... and Uses Isaiahs prophecy to show them its in in the scripture and John then comes right behind Jesus in his gospel and tells us who Jesus was speaking of... its Johns writings, I think he should know who he was talking about... and infact makes it clear.
Second there was and is a reasoning for the hardening of these means hearts... the rejected God first... time and time again...
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 418
(4/24/02 12:43 pm) Reply
Re: Draw all men...
"Jesus was telling HIS followers why others, the main dudes in the temple wouldn't follow Him..."
Once again, the text is:
John 12:20-42 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: The same [1] came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus. And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This he said, signifying what death he should die.
The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light.
These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,
Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Nevertheless among the chief rulers [2] also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him [Jesus], lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
Vss. 20-41 have one group in view ([1]), starting from the "among" in v. 20. The third person pronouns (they, them, etc.) in that section refer to that same group, and Jesus directly addresses them (ye, you). This group doesn't believe, and we are given the cause, because they were blinded and hardened.
Vss. 42-43 starts out with an antithetical statement--Nevertheless--meaning that is is another thought that is contrary to the preceeding thought. Namely, some believed, even though other had been blinded. The second group ([2]), here (those who believed) are distinguished by the same word as the first group--"among." This group believes but does not confess, and we are given the cause, because they were afraid that the Pharisees would kick them out of the synagogue--and they loved the praise of men (so, didn't want to be kicked out).
Please explain Romans 9:18 to me, as you understand it. Thanks.
Re: Draw all men...
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
(Now here is the kicker, which you seem to skip over.)
John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
(Showing that even some of the chief rules believed it, but because the Pharisees "who are the ones that are blinded, and who Jesus was talking about, because they can't see Jesus as who he is, others won't confess."
John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
(and why they don't)
The scripture repeated in john... is about Isa 6:9-10, God has Isaiah in heaven and is telling him what to pronouce to the 12 tribes... for their rebellion to him. Now MonkeeSage if you read Isa chap 1 you'll see that the jews were told and had a chance first to turn to God... then chap 2 also tells them "O yea house of Jacob, come ya, walk in the light of the Lord. Over and over they are told in the coming chapters they have a choice, a free will, to turn to Father... He goes over and over all the things that they are to stop doing, and things to do, they rejected him, but it was their choice... and with that comes a hardening of the heart... the farther ya fall the farther the climb... That was to the whole house of Jacob... do you presuppose they all were lost? Time jump to the Christ child, talking to those of that same house of Jacob "Israel... to wrestle with God." ... who knew that very scripture quite well... Now Christ warned this same house time and time again... BUT, knew very well that they had a heart of stone, and wouldn't, or scripture could not be fulfilled... but come of His last words on the cross where... Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Do you think Father heard him?
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
blessings... kj
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 538
(5/10/02 12:14 pm) Reply
Re: Draw all men...
I have pointed out there are two groups, one who didn't believe, who were blinded, one who did believe, but didn't confess it. There is no need to go in a circle. But, for the sake of posterity, I will show you what vss. 42-43 means by exegesis, again.
"Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God."
Nevertheless--disjunctive, making it antithetical to the previous referent, namely, those who didn't believe and were blinded; "though some were blinded and hardened and didn't believe";
Nevertheless [though some were blinded and hardened and didn't believe], aomg the chief rulers also;
also--conjunctive. Also what? just as some "among them going up to worship" (V. 20), also "among the chief rulers."
The nevertheless causing a constast in the sense; just as some "among them going up to worship" didn't believe, so also "among the chief rulers" some believed.
but because--yet; even though in contrast to the nonbelievers, some believed; but because;
because--that is, by reason of;
the Pharisees--that is, fear of the Pharisees;
they did not confess him--What type of fear of the Pharisees would stiffle confession, and why?
--lest they [who believed but did not confess] should be put out of the synagogue: for they [who believed but did not confess] loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
-
Also, as I pointed out earlier, even if I grant that we are only talking about the Pharisees here, this still only goes to demonstrate my point. Jesus could not have meant He would draw "all individuals everywhere," because the Father hardened and blinded some individuals (be they Pharisees, or a group of Jews & proselytes); and the Father and Son never act out of harmony or at odds with each other.
Re: Draw all men...
No it was me that pointed it out that he was talking about the Pharisees that would not believe... not the greeks that came to hear him... second... just because one is drawn to God and Christ does not mean they will come.
The word clearly shows, as in all these posts, that God draws everyone to him, that none should perish... that all men everywhere should repent, and have a free will choice to repent or not to, the Pharisees chose not to, and because they would not repent, God hardened their heart... does this mean they were doomed to hell? Arent these the same men that killed Christ? Father, Father forgive them for they know not what they do? Think Father heard Christ? And granted his dying request>?
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