MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 314
(4/20/02 5:27 am) Reply
Justice and Salvation...
Romans 3:9-19 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
"Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. (ESV)
1) All men (Jew & Greek, with no difference) are accountable to God for their own sin.
Eph. 2:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,... (ESV)
2) He "works all things after the counsel of His will." That would include allowing evil/sin for His own purposes (Pro. 16:4).
"If He allows it, it cannot be called unwilling, but willing" [Augustine]. The question is, does He allow it for the same purposes that the sinner commits it? The answer is, most plainly, no (Gen. 50:20, Eze. 18:32).
God does not allow sin, except to His own greater purpose. In every case, though, God does not cause a person to commit sin, He only allows them to do so.
John 12:37-40 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,
Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. (KJV)
Matthew 11:25-27 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (ESV)
3) The fact that all are sinners by their own nature (Eph. 2:1-3), and the fact that God allows sin for His own purposes, do not negate the guilt of the actual sinner (Rom. 3:5-8).
So it can only be seen as an act of justice that He hardens some; and it can only be seen as an act of pure Grace that He softens others.
1 Cor. 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (ESV)
1 Cor. 2:11-14 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (ESV)
John 8:34-36 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. (ESV)
4) Unless God softens a heart, it finds the things of His Spirit to be foolishness (folly); because it is enslaved to the power of sin and is at enmity against God (Rom. 8:5-8): without God's grace none will ever come to Him.
Thus God does not promise a new "will" but rather a new heart: "And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." (Ezekiel 36:26-27 (ESV)).
And, all of this is summed up most clearly in the Apostle, where he says:
Romans 9:14-24 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (ESV)
1) All men (Jew & Greek, with no difference) are accountable to God for their own sin.
(Thats just the point, how can they be accountable if not given the choice and chance to repent and turn from the darkness to light? It wouldn't be of their own doing, there would be no judgment passed on them... why? They couldn't help but sin and God didn't elect them. So what will they be judged on, God is going to say... I made you, and you had no chance at not turning from evil to goodness because I made you just the way you are and there is nothing you can do about it, therefore I judge you to have done just what i made you to do?)
3) The fact that all are sinners by their own nature (Eph. 2:1-3), and the fact that God allows sin for His own purposes, do not negate the guilt of the actual sinner (Rom. 3:5- .
(We were sinners too!!! So either sinners can be saved or were all doomed!)
4) Unless God softens a heart, it finds the things of His Spirit to be foolishness (folly); because it is enslaved to the power of sin and is at enmity against God (Rom. 8:5- : without God's grace none will ever come to Him.
(Thats the key... and each person can have a direct outcome on if God will give them a new heart... )
Ezekiel 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 334
(4/20/02 9:45 am) Reply
Re: Justice and Salvation...
"(Thats just the point, how can they be accountable if not given the choice and chance to repent and turn from the darkness to light?"
I was wondering how long it would be till you got back to your real position and got rid of the lip-service you said in the other forum: "myself... I say none of us deserves a chance, not one... "
That's not what you believe, at all, you just showed us that; you believe that people can't be "accountable if not given the choice and chance to repent and turn from the darkness to light."
I believe that God owes a chance to none and that all are sinners. People are accountable for the real choices they make, regardless if they had a chance to repent.
"They couldn't help but sin and God didn't elect them. So what will they be judged on, God is going to say... I made you, and you had no chance at not turning from evil to goodness because I made you just the way you are and there is nothing you can do about it, therefore I judge you to have done just what i made you to do?)"
As Jehu objects to the apostle Paul:
"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"
..I will simply point out that God owes no sinner anything, let alone a chance to repent.
"(We were sinners too!!! So either sinners can be saved or were all doomed!)"
Again, you just have to read the Scripture:
Eph. 2:1-7 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
"But God"--not "but you..."--no, nothing in man, nothing man could do, but God. Those two little words are the Gospel. But God.
Jer. 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Only God can soften the heart, which is why "no man can come to [Jesus] except the Father who sent [Him] draws them" (John 6:44) and they "cannot please God" (Rom. 8:8).
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