Limited atonement refuted!
I believe Father in his wisdom and divine sovereignty, decreed before time as we know it, that all would be included in both total depravity and in unlimited atonement. To prove my stance I will show that Christ died for all souls, that salvation can be lost after partaking in Christ fully. That free will does exist for all men, and that both the election and the damned will be judge for their actions, and this judgment has direct cause and effect on salvation.
I also believe Father knew, before the foundations of the world, who would choose to accept Christ and who would choose to refuse Him. 1 Pet 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" I don't believe Father culled who would and who would not receive Christ. But, knows the outcome of each use of free will. And that predestination does not mean an absolute fate, but that the destination was set for all, and some rejected that destination
For the elect, Fathers plan was salvation through the grace in Christ Jesus before the world began (2 Tim. 1:9; 2 Thess. 2:13). For unbelievers, he paid the price, to leave them without vindicate. The damned are so because they have rejected the blood of Jesus Christ (John 3:18; 5:40). One will never stand before Father claiming "I am not saved because Christ did not die for me." God has left them no excuse rom 1:20 ... so that they are without excuse:
Initial salvation refers to the moment in time when a person extends a trusting-submitting faith in Jesus Christ for his personal salvation and thereby instantly receives the gift of salvation. At this same moment in time he also passes from spiritual death to life, from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to the power of God (Jn. 5:24; Acts 26:18; 1 Jn. 3:14).
Such a person is also set free from sin (Jn. 8:32-36; Rom. 6:22 1john 3:8-9 1 John 3:6.). As a receiver of salvation he has also been held righteous in Fathers eyes and made a son of God because of his faith in Christ (Rom. 3:22; Gal. 3:26), who is now his Lord and Savior (Gal. 5:24; Eph. 5:24).
Limited atonement vs Sins of the World.
Point #1 Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (All means all man kind, does that mean all will accept it, no.)
#2 John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. [Strong's Number: 3956 Orig/word pa'ß Def. including all the forms of declension Trans/word Pas Def 1. individually a. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything.] (All there means the first definition to me. )
Some try to tell me that "world" doesn't really mean "world"' and "the whole world" doest really mean "the whole world." and "all" doesn't mean "all" and "every man" doesnt mean "every man" etc. etc. Meaning I should change it to fit their order of theology. I believe that for the most part, God, in His Might and Power was able to give the word to the english speaking masses. If one needs to be learned in greek to understand the bible, then the election must all be Greeks. It is proper if a word comes into question, to seek out the root word, but not proper to fit that word to make the bible fit ones own theology
#3 John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Showing who can be saved.) 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. ( reason why) 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (And free will at work.)
#4 2 Corinitains 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
(The world to me means world, will all the world accept it. No.)
#5 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
(Any man that sins, sins of the whole world.)
The elect people of God are told not to sin, but if they did sin Jesus Christ is an advocate to God. John continues by stating that the blood of Christ was not only shed for the elect but for the sins of the whole world. This strongly asserts not unlimited salvation, but unlimited atonement. But in no way means all will take the atonement.
#6 1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (Again, the word is clear to me, who he came to save, will some reject it, yes.)
#7 Mathew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (Clearly a calling to all. ALL are heavy laden with problems in life and sin.)
#8 John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Will all accept that price? No as 2 peter 2:1-2 shows)
#9 2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (Here it CLEARLY shows he even paid the price for the false ones, that rejected him. Over and over it makes it clear he paid for all sins... of every man, even the false prophets... that does not mean all will cash in on this deal... no makes Jesus a failer... but man.)
(The false prophets in that verse are unsaved, they're bound for destruction. Peter says that even though they are unsaved Christ died for them. Some will not come to Him, that they might have salvation; they will not have Him to rule over them; they reject their salvation)
#10 Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (All men are born into sin and ungoldy.)
5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
(Clearly to me that shows that he died for all un-righteous, which is everyone. Will all accept it, no.)
#11 1 Tim 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(Agian clearly all men.)
#12 Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
(Every man to me means every man, now mind you to have full limited atonment Jesus only died for those that are saved, the election, his blood was in no way to cover the sins of the lost, it wasn't eever meant to and there is no way the had the slighest chance of being saved, it was Gods will they burn in hell, as I understand Calvinism's view on limited atonement.)
#13 1 Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
(That's to the church, about church elders and shows they can fall into the snares of the devil.)
#14 niv Romans 2:8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger...
(To reject something one must first be able to receive it. Its not a rejection if one is not able to accept it. i.e. I cannot reject a rock from mars because I am not given the chance to accept it.)
#15 Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
(Showing "they" rejected it of their own free will. If they were predestined to hell, it would not a be a matter of rejecting Gods word... they would have no choice, for you can't reject what you can't receive.)
#16 1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
(Again, the word is clear to me, who he came to save, will some reject it, yes.)
#17 Romans 10:3 Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
(Showing they could have submitted, but chose not to. Free will.)
#18 1 Timothy 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe..
(These verses, clearly to me, show the atonement of Christ is for all. If limited atonement was true it would have to say... because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all elect, specially of those that are the elect.)
#19 EXCERPT FROM a page... Calvin in his later days wrote in about 1 John 2:2 as follows: "Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and in the goodness of God is offered unto all men without distinction, His blood being shed not for a part of the world only, but for the whole human race; for although in the world nothing is found worthy of the favor of God, yet He holds out the propitiation to the whole world, since without exception He summons all to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than the door unto hope." If anyone knows where i might find proof of this please let me know.
Who did Christ died for by the bibles words. 1. For all (1 Tim 2:6; Isa 53:6). 2. For every man (Heb. 2:9). 3. For the world (John 3:16). 4. For the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2 Isa 49:6). 5. For the ungodly (Rom. 5:6). 6. For false teachers (2 Peter 2:1). 7. For many (Matthew 20:2. 8. For Israel (John 11:50-51). 9. For the Church (Eph. 5:25). 10. For "me" (Gal. 2:20). I don't know how the bible could have been any clearer on the matter.
(Next I plan to show that limited atonement isn't biblical in my view because, the word show beyond doubt that man must take that second step, after the knowledge of Christ's atonement. Some point out that this is just a means "cause" to salvation and wholly of God and one has no choice to repent or not... just a formality in the election process of Salvation. I rejected that stance and believe the word in part sows the first seeds of faith.)
#20 Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
(By that verse either all Israel is the elect, and all saved, or all could be the elect and some might reject that election.)
#21 Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
(He came to call sinners... unlimited in scope. All have sinned and are or where sinners.)
#22 Mathew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
(Again Jesus Himself says it... this is over and over... by many of them, how could someone account for this many clear mistakes in translation, wouldn't the election be the righteous already anway?)
#23 Rev. 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
(Showing why God dealt with them harshly, an in-action they could have done, but did not.)
#24 Rev. 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
(Clearly showing they are doomed, but can take that action. It is showing they are doomed, except they repent.)
#25 Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(Again showing they can repent, Father is saying, you have a choice.)
#26 Mark 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
(Men.)
#27 Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
(Not all will repent, but a choice.)
#28 Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
(Now if limited atonement is true, there would be no party, they would have been saved from the start.)
#29 Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
(Clearly a choice and twice.)
#30 Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
(How can they repent if its to the always lost, and if its to the always saved, how can they perish. Again clearly showing Calvinism is a falsehood... to me.)
#31 Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
(Gladness, that they didn't reject the gift of grace. And here is who is called to do it.)
#32 Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
(I contend that all men everywhere means... all men everywhere.)
#33 Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
[Gentiles = e[qnoß = Ethnos =1. a multitude [whether of men or of beasts] associated or living together a. a company, troop, swarm 2.a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus a.the human family 3. a tribe, nation, people group in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles.]
(note) rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
(Showing Paul used Gentiles to mean non-Christians, also in 1 cor 10:20 1cor 12:2 and others... some try to say gentiles means Christians only in that verse, but Paul used it both ways.)
#34 Galations 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
(Note he says "might" and "through faith" now is faith in God only from God... Jesus didn't seem to think so because He was the one that got onto us time and time again about lack of faith.)
#35Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
(Clearly telling him to repent, and pray, and it could have a impact on Father, and they are unforgiven at this point.)
#36 Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
(That you sins "may" be blotted out, not that they will... the verse sould read... you will repent and your sins have been blotted out since before creation if unlimted atonement was true shouldn't it?)
#37 Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Why would Peter tell everyone of them to do this, should one making a call to repent and be baptized take it as a light thing, that even those that couldn't be saved should take this means of salvation. Is this to be regarded as something that the absolute un-atonable should try to take on?)
#38 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(Now here it says, that any should perish, now some say "any" here means the already saved... then how could they perish. This verse in itself proves limited atonement to be a false teaching to me. If its to the election THEY COULDN'T PERISH IF THEY TRIED... by the Calvinism view.)
(Now for the next step I will show that man is given and is able to use his free will, to either reject or accept atonement by the grace of God. )
#39 Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
(He came to them, that they would hear, "they" rejected it and further he show they made the choice. They counted themselves unworthy of something Paul was trying to give them... that CLEARLY shows free will.)
#40 rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;
(This in no way means God made either baby doomed, all this is iluding to in my eyes is before either child was born God knew which child had done good or evil in there perspective lifes... Just like God knows what the last soul picked, good or evil.)
#41 Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
(Showing we were adopted, not always the election.)
#42 Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
(This shows, that even Paul is waiting for the end means, that is not the fully reached yet.)
#43 Heb.3:12 Take heed brethren , lest there be in any of you and evil heart of unbelief , in departing from the truth. ( Can't depart unless a part of the truth. Can't know the truth without Jesus Christ .) But exhort one anotheir daily , while it is called today. Lest any of you be hardened threw the deceitfulness of sin . For we are partakers of Christ , if we hold the beggining of our confidence stedfast till the end. (Need God say anymore?)
#44 (If limited atonement is true, why would their be a judgment day at all. "I judged you damned because I picked you to be damned from before creation")
#45 (If limted atonement is true why are the elect judge before the throne of Christ... "You are judge blessed because I blessed you before creation")
#46 (Jesus says Love God with all your heart and soul... but if pre-elected to this faith, how is it we love at all, does God put the love in us, to make him love us... and if so is that true love? And if God doesnt put the love in us then isn't it a free choice to love him.)
#46 (If limited atonement was true wouldn't that mean that some babies will burn in hell?)
#47 (Is limited atonement is true, and only fulfilled by the blood of Christ... does that mean before Christ all men where doomed? If not, then somehow overs found atonement for there sin... how?)
(This is by no means all the verse that prove that unlimited is the truth and will of Father... more to come later... but for one to prove Calvinism true they would have to prove each one of those verses don't really mean what they seem to be saying.)
Here I plan to show why limited atonement is false according to what the word has to say about Judgment Day.
#1 Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. (Why bring every work into judgment, if the end result is sent before creation?)
#2 2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (Here it says judgment day is perdition is for the ungodly man.)
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (Yet here it says Christ paid the sin for the ungodly men.)
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (And here. No limited atonement can't be true imo, because Christ died for only those that are elected... and these verses show other wise.)
#3 Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. (Here it says its of their own accord, and therefore their damnation would be placed on their won free will.)
#4 Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. (Here it even tells you why they would be judge, but by limited atonement they couldn't have done anything but deny Christ therefor no cause for judgment... right?)
#5 Mathew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. (Here again SQUARELY laying the charge on them come judgment day, with limited atonement no matter what words came out of each others mouth would matter not.)
#6 Zephaniah 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger. (Here clearly showing them, they had an effect on the outcome of their judgment and therefor salvation.)
#7 Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. (Why would God be angry at them and seek vengeance, either they were made to do good or bad... election or not?)
#8 Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. (Why will we be judged, if we were elected irreversible?)
#9 Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
#10 Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. (If limited atonement were true, neither side would have any choice in this matter so why warn us?)
#11 Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (To overcome something means to victory over it, but by limited atonement, it was pre-set that we would over come so why the warning to overcome?, we couldnt help but overcome.)
#12 2 Corinitains 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
(Why judge the doomed, they will burn in hell no matter what so why even bring up there bad? Is there a worse punishment then hell?)
#13 Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. (Why is Christ to make us judge? How can we judge something preset by God?)
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1 Corinitains 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
#14 Mathew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Why make the 12 apostles judges, why judge the 12 tribes separate from the rest?)
#15 Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (If All are judged out of the same book, doesn't it stand to reason that the standard would be the same for all... isn't that what fair justice means?)
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
#16 Zephaniah 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. (Here it show because of there actions God blinded them and because they were predestined to disobey.)
#17 2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
#18 2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (And here it shows they could have.)
1 Corinitains 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is
#19 2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
( Many Calvinist point to verse "10: Wherefore then rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" as proof of limited atonement, but that very verse shows them to be wrong... because it says "if" ya do... none will fall. 2nd when talking of those that fell it shows they forgot the blood atoned for there sin... meaning it covered them, but they lost faith in verse 9.)
Re: Limited atonement refuted!
Here I will show that the word indicates that once saved always saved is not biblical. Showing that Limited Atonement is fasle.
Limited Atonement vs Lost Salvation.
#1 Romans 11:13-22 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
"That is talking about bashing the Jew and is very clear to me that if you do it you can lose your salvation, read the whole of the chapter and see for yourself. If you disagree then I just guess the Holy Spirit is leading us in a different direction."
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
"That alone says it all, once saved always is false. You can't stand by faith unless under grace and He will take that faith away for certain things, if we stay stiffnecked to his will for instance. Its to the ALREADY saved."
#2 Hebrews 10:24-27 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
"Note he is talking to the church and says 'we', meaning him as well"
#3 2 peter 2:20 For if after they have escape the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the lord and savoir Jesus Christ, they are again entangled there in, and overcome, the latter end is worse for them then the beggining. for it had been better for them not to have know the way of rightousness, then after they had know it to turn from the holy commandment given unto them.
(ONE cannot escape the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the lord and savoir Jesus Christ, unless they are of Christ. And nore he says "they are again entangled there in, and overcome, the latter end is worse for them then the beggining." clearly showing they had over come the world by Christ and then entangled and overcome again.
#4 Gal. 5:1 Standfast there for in the liberty wherein Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage . Behold, I Paul say unto you ,that if ye be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified bye the law, YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE.
(You have to have grace to fall from it. By grace ye are saved, turn back to legalism as some Galatians had done , lost salvation is found)
#5 Rev.3:11 Behold I come quickly, hold that which thou hast that no man take thy crown.
(A warning to all. If you hold to the faith you have in Christ with prayers and fruits, a mad of the dark will sow seeds and your armour will not be battle ready. )
#6 2 Peter 3:17 Ye there for, beloved, seeing ye know these things before , BEWARE lest ye also , being led away with the error of the wicked , fall from your own stedfastness.
( You cant be stedfast in Christ without Christ , and you can loose it according to the word of God. )
#7 Luke 9:6 No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looketh back is fit for the kingdom of God.
#8 Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those that where once enlighted , and having tasted of the Heavenly gifts , and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost , and have tasted the good word of God , and the powers of the world to come . if they shall fall away to renew them again unto repentance , seeings they curcify to them selfs the Son of God afresh and put his name to an open shame.
( You can't have gifts of the Holy Ghost unless your with Christ and you can lose both.)
#9 Jude 6. And the angels which kept not their first estate but left their own habatation , He hath reserved in everlasting chains of darkness unto judgement of that great day .
( Angels fallen from grace , salvation , stedfastness , call it what you will , they lost it because they lost faith in God . )
#10 Rev. 3:3 Remember there for how thou hast recieved and heard , and hold fast and repent . If therefor thou shalt not watch , I will come as a thief , and thou shalt not know what hour I come .
( He wouldn't give these warning unless they were needed. Christ isn't Chicken Little running around spewing warnings for nothing is He?)
#11 Heb.3:12-13 Take heed brethren , lest there be in any of you and evil heart of unbelief , in departing from the truth. But exhort one anotheir daily , while it is called today. Lest any of you be hardened threw the deceitfulness of sin . For we are partakers of Christ , if we hold the beggining of our confidence stedfast till the end.
(Can't depart from the truth unless a part of the truth. Can't know the truth without Jesus Christ. Need God say anymore? Look he even calls them brethren, they are of the church... even telling them to build each other up.)
#12 1 Tim. 4:16 Take heed unto thyself , and unto doctrine continue in them , for in doing this thou shalt both save thy self and them which hear thee.
( Now unless one has faith way above that of Timothy's and Paul's , one should take heed I would think , right ?)
#13 1 Peter 5:6 Humble yourselfs therefore under the mighty hand of thy God , that he may exalt you in due time , casting all your care upon him , for he careth for you . Be sober , vigilant because your adversary the Devil , as a roaring loin , walketh about seeking whom he may devour whom resist stedfast in the faith , knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
( Satan isn't out to steal the lost , he has them , guess who he seeks.)
#14 Rev. 3:5 He that over cometh , the same shall be clothed in white rainment , and I will not blot out their name out of the book of life , but will confess his name before my Father and before his angels .
(Don't over come and guess what?)
#15 HEB. 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail short of the grace of God , lest any root of bitterness spring up trouble you , and there by you may be defiled . Lest there be any fornicator , or profane person as Esau ,who for a morsel of meat sold his birth right . For you know that how afterward when he would have inherited the blessing he was rejected ,for he found no place for repentance ,though he sought it carefully with tears .
#16 1 Tim. 5:12 Having damnation because they have cast off their first faith .
#17 Ex.32:33 And the Lord said to Moses , Whosoever hath sinned against me , him will I blot out of my book .
#18 Ex.32:33 And the Lord said to Moses , Whosoever hath sinned against me , him will I blot out of my book .
#19 PSLM.69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living and be be not written with the righteous.
#20 Col.2:6 As ye have received Jesus Christ the lord , so walk thee in him rooted and built up in him and established in the faith , as ye have been taught abounding there in with thanksgiving. BEWARE lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men , after the rudiments of the world , and not after Christ.
( If you've received Christ ... BEWARE ...)
#21 1 Cor.10:8-12 Neither be ye idolaters , as were some of them as it is written , the people sat down to eat and drink , and rose up early to play . Neither let us commit fornication as some of them committed , and FELL , in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us not tempt Christ , as some of them also tempted , and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye , as some of them murmured , and were destroyed of the destroyer . Now all these things happened unto them for ENSAMPLES . And they are written for our ADMONITION , upon whom the ends of the world are come . Wherefore let him that thinketh he stand take heed lest he FALL .
( Now if you don't stand fast in the lord , don't take heed, but if you do , take heed .)
#22 (Christ was please with the church of Ephesus except one thing , so he told John to write ...)
Rev. 2:4 Never the less I have somewhat against thee , because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou hast FALLEN , and repent , and do thy first works , or else I will come unto you quickly , and remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent .
#23 James 2:14-20 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
(Faith is great, its given by God to those that wished to server Him. If you forget why faith was imputed, because you wanted to serve, you then will stop serving, and your faith has become vainess.)
#24 Mathew 21:28-31 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
(Note he used the words son, showing a son father relationship.)
#25 Mathew 16:24-27 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
(If you put that cross down, you can lose your rewards, for you have stopped your works for the Lord.)
#26 Mathew 5:10-13 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
(Come on guys, thats very clear... People ya just can't pick and chose the parts ya like and trash the rest. He clearly shows then to be saved, calling them the salt of the earth. Then goes on to make it clear what happens to them that lose their "savour" but to be cast out.)
#27 Ephessians 6:11-13 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
(Satan isn't out to get the damned.)
#28 2 Corinitains 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
#29 1 Thessalonians 4:1-3 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
(You dive back into fornication, get in bondage to it and thats one way to lose your santifaction.)
(This is by no means all the verse that prove that unlimited is the truth and will of Father... more to come later... but for one to prove Calvinism true they would have to prove each one of those verses don't really mean what they seem to be saying.)
Re: Limited atonement refuted!
I have number these "points" #1 #2 etc on both parts, that no verses get lost, and if one wishes to comment on the points please start at #1 on each post.
Re: Limited atonement refuted!
A well known Calvinist known on DALnet, that goes by the nicks St.JohnCalvin and Dr.Reformed was asked to come here, but declined to answer this board, and opped out to a formal debate, starting on June 30th. . . IF any of you can these points, number by numers, please do, as John is not the only one that has come by here, then decided not to take this thread on. . .
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