Prophets.... Why is it that:
It was OK and protestants ACCEPT that prophets did INDEED exist since Genesis, all the way up until Jesus' time... But when the True Church, (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) claims by truth and nothing BUT, that His Church has been restored to what it WAS in the beginning, INCLUDING PROPHETS, and IS again, it's a bunch of malarkey?? Did people SCOFF at Noah? You betcha! Did they all drown in the flood? Oh yeah...
Well? Why? Because the Bible says beware of false prophets, you just assume Our Church's prophets MUST be the ones the Bible is talking about?
Please inform me, I'd love to hear this...
Kim
Well first off, I haven't read your book of Mormon myself... as I got to the second page and it said... "Introduction to the Book of Mormon: The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. Our Prophet Joseph Smith said: "The Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (I.e. the Bible)
Second you are correct the bible warms us time and time again that false teachers and false doctrine will come... WHAT is does not say however, is that more scripture would come... what the bible didn't fulfill all... ALSO..."Wherefore, because you have a Bible you need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need you suppose that I have not caused more to be written. 2 Nephi 29:10
(INFACT it does claim to be above the word of God, ebven claiming it to be false.)
The foundation of a great and abominable church (i.e. Mormons say Catholic church), which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious. And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men. Wherefore, thou seest that after the book (i.e. the Bible) hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book (i.e. the Bible). 1 Nephi 13:26-28
Mormon Article of Faith #8: "We Believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."
Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the gospel: D&C 20:9
(Again leaving the bible wanting...)
AND true still is this....
#1 How do you account for the stunning parallels in both content and order between the B of M and the View of the Hebrews, by Ethan Smith? Published in 1823 (7 years before the B of M) less than 100 miles from the Joseph Smith's parents home.
#2 If the Book of Mormon is true, then why has the Mormon church changed it? Examples are: 1 Nephi 11:21; 19:20; 20:1 and Alma 29:4. Compare these with the original Book of Mormon. (Gerald and Sandra Tanner have counted 3913 changes in the book of Mormon, excluding punctuation changes.)
#3 When Christ died, did darkness cover the land for three days or for three hours? (Luke 23:44 and 3 Nephi 8:19, 23).
#4 Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old. Since he was wrong about the moon, is it safe to trust him regarding the way to Heaven? (The Young Woman's Journal, Vol. 3, pages 263-264. See repreint in Mormonism --Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner, page 4.)
#5 If Jesus was conceived as a result of a physical union between God and Mary, how was Jesus born of a virgin?
#6 How do you explain the fact that 2 Nephi 16:2 is copied from an older version of the KJV of the Bible in Isa 6:2? This is proven because this older KJV (the mistake is corrected in current versions) made a rare gramatical error by using the incorrect plural form of "seraphims" rather than "seraphim
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
I'm a recent convert to the Church, as of April, last year... However, I DO know that through thousands of years of reforming the words even in THE BIBLE... that it has been altered by man's hand... therefore giving creedance to the necessity for the 'lost' parts by MANS err, being RESTORED.
I HAVE read the book. You say you haven't. If you're going to have a website nearly dedicated in itself to bashing mormons, don't you think you should fully educate yourself, and not rely yet again on other mens wisdom, or lack thereof...? and read it yourself? Not just SOME? I haven't read a book yet, that makes sense in it's entirety, if not read in it's entirety...
I find it ironic that there is a sector of the religious community who'd classify Latter-Day Saints ignorant or even the ones lacking intelligence... However, we're also the one's who question EVERYTHING.... especially the one's who were not 'born into' the Church. We investigated. Thoroughly. We read, prayed, pondered, intensely.... But first, and foremost, we read the book in it's entirety and asked until sufficed...
We are indeed, a thinking lot.
Are you? Or do you just go by a verse here and there, just enough to back up a distorted, 'fed' belief?
Kim
http://www.lds-singleparents.com
soundoff
Unregistered User
(4/10/02 5:33 pm) Reply
KingJehu dude because
Kim said:
unless you can display better reading skills than you did on MY board.... lest you may be stompled to an uncomfortable level of humility...
Your question:
#6 How do you explain the fact that 2 Nephi 16:2 is copied from an older version of the KJV of the Bible in Isa 6:2? This is proven because this older KJV (the mistake is corrected in current versions) made a rare gramatical error by using the incorrect plural form of "seraphims" rather than "seraphim
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
Let me see if I got this right... you yoked yourself with a church... yet you don't know that churches doctrine and history?
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
I'm learning as I go... Do you think that it is feasible to require a new convert to know every single bit of information regarding doctrine and Church history?
Did you as a child know in it's entirety, every aspect of doctrine and Church history of yours?
Kim
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
And once more, I'd like to reiterate the two other bulletin boards regarding Church Apologetics:
http://pub26.ezboard.com/bpacumenispages
and:
http://www.fair-lds.org/message.html
as there are mannnnny others there who are better at debating than I... It's in my nature to debate, however I am not fully aware yet of all of the 'rumors' and (yes, alot of it is fallacy) and also do not have a perfect knowledge of the doctrines and Church history, as you surely did not as a child, when things were still being taught to you.
My apologies once again...
Kim
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
No Problem Sister and yes you are correct... we all start out with baby steps... please visist my homepage to see by beliefs... as they are bible based in my view... and again... sorry that other Christians try to exclude you from the Body of Christ... they have become as the priest of the temple that holds the key to the kingdom and will not enter... not let anyone else... sounds much like the Jehovah Witness tend to do... Bless you in your search for the truth in our Lord Jesus Christ.
www.angelfire.com/realm/s...truth.html <--- this page relects my views and mine alone and though some others in our rooms feel as I do it in no way speaks for all...
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
Thank you again...
I think you know how to access my site to read about my beliefs as well, it's in my profile, oh well here it is anyway LOL!
http://www.lds-singleparents.com/testimony
Although it is FAR from being done LOL!
And have much more to add now that I've been shunned.
;)
Love,
Kim
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
:)
I'll be back after kiddies are in bed for the night.
Talk soon.
Kim
http://www.lds-singleparents.com
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 135
(4/10/02 9:45 pm) Reply
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
"It was OK and protestants ACCEPT that prophets did INDEED exist since Genesis, all the way up until Jesus' time... But when the True Church, (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) claims by truth and nothing BUT, that His Church has been restored to what it WAS in the beginning, INCLUDING PROPHETS, and IS again, it's a bunch of malarkey??...Well? Why? Because the Bible says beware of false prophets, you just assume Our Church's prophets MUST be the ones the Bible is talking about? Please inform me, I'd love to hear this..."
Protestants read the Bible in whole, that's the first reason they reject the LDS concept of the Bible and prophets. The Bible presents the office of prophet as a historical function that God ordained in order to bring His words to His people, and then to build the Old Testament Church, as well as to vindicate His claim to be the only God there is.
Now that the historical function is completed, the office is completed. God has nothing new to tell His people, He has given them all they need already, and preserved it for them in the Bible. Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit the last book of the Bible that was written by the Apostle John on the isle of Patmos, seals all the former by cursing any who would add to or take away from them.
Protestants further reject the LDS conception of the office of prophet, because Biblical prophets would never give a revelation that was counter to what God had revealed elsewhere, or did not come to pass. If they claimed to be a prophet and told the people that there were other gods, they were to be put to death (Deu. 18:20-22). The Apostle Paul tells us under inspiration that whether a man (Joe Smith) or an angel (Moroni) preaches another gospel to us--anaqema estw--they are cursed (Gal. 1:6-8).
Jesus also told us that; "...I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18). Gates are a defensive mechanism, not offense. They are stationary, the Church advances. So far from Jesus' Church ever being able to become so apostate that Joe Smith had to "restore" it, even the gates of hell will not be able to withstand the divine strength of the Church, through Christ.
"The Church, however small, and however much a Gideon's band, is the aggressor against the powers of darkness, who, in constant frenzy, try to barricade themselves, in their towers of Babel, against the sovereign and omnipotent God." (R.J. Rushdoony; The Foundations of the Social Order, [Fairfax, VA: Thoburn Press, 1978] p. 182). Cf. 2 Cor. 10
Protestants agree with the Bible "in as far as its correctly translated"--in as far as that statement is correctly understood!--but Joseph Smith's translation is not correctly translated, and it adds readings that have never been seen in any Greek (Septuagint) or Hebrew manuscript, for example;
"And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying, That Satan whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning; And he came before me, saying, Behold I, send me, I will be thy Son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore, give me thine honor. But behold, my beloved Son, which was my beloved and chosen from the beginning, said unto me: Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever. Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him; and also that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten I caused that he should be cast down; and he became Satan. Yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive, and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice. And now, the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field, which I, the Lord God, had made. And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, for he had drawn away many after him; and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God; wherefore, he sought to destroy the world." (Joseph Smith Translation: the Inspired Version, 1833, Gen. 3:1-7)
Not only does this passage lack all manuscriptural support in any language or version, but it is also contrary to other places in the Bible where we are told that it was God's eternal purpose `before the creation of the universe' to send Jesus to be the Lamb who was slain for sin (Micah 5:2, Rev. 13:8, etc.).
In essence protestants reject the LDS/RLDS because the LDS/RLDS reject the Bible--the Bible as it stands in history, at least.
Protestants (that is, orthodox, or fundamentalist protestants) believe;
"The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men (Gal. 1:8, Gal. 1:9; 2 Thess. 2:2; 2 Tim. 3:15-17). Nevertheless we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word (John 6:45; 1 Cor. 2:9, 1 Cor. 2:10, 1 Cor. 2:12): and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed (1 Cor. 11:13, 1 Cor. 11:14; 1 Cor. 14:26, 1 Cor. 14:40)." (Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 1, Article 7).
Also, just an FYI--prophets didn't exist up to Jesus' time, Malachi was the last prophet who had God's authority to speak to the nation, which was about 430 years before Jesus came. In the New Testament period there we prophets, but they had no authority to speak words that were binding on the whole Church, they were basically teachers in function, not revealers like Old Testament prophets. Paul uses the word prophet/prophecy to explicitly mean a teacher/teaching (see 1 Cor. 14). In only one instance in the NT do we find prophetic utterance as in the OT, which is binding on the whole Church, and that is the Apokalypse (Revealing) of Jesus Christ to John, which concludes by warning that nothing should be added or removed, else the plagues and curses of that book would come upon the one who did so.
PaperCup Registered User
Posts: 51
(4/10/02 10:30 pm) Reply
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
Kjv Joel2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions
Does this verse mean that more prophets are here from the point of Jesus to the present day ??
To me this verse suggests, that the prophethood is still active ...
PaperCup
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 136
(4/10/02 10:51 pm) Reply
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
Joel's Prophecy (OT prophecy) means that at the day of Pentecost it was fulfilled, and that the "prophecy" (NT prophecy) spoken of by Joel, that happened at Pentecost, was not binding on the whole Church, but was an individual experience that would establish for those who came after that Jesus is the Lord spoken of in the OT:
Acts 2:1-36 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God." And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "What does this mean?" But others mocking said, "They are filled with new wine."
But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
" 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
And I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
the sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'
"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. For David says concerning him,
" 'I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
my flesh also will dwell in hope.
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.'
"Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.'
Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
Registered User
Posts: 13
(4/10/02 11:26 pm) Reply
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
Monkee, I have a question... What version of the Bible are you quoting from?
@~~~<~~~~<~~~~<~~~
"Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets."
(Luke 6:22 - 23)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 137
(4/10/02 11:44 pm) Reply
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
In my post in response to your question I quoted the AV of 1769/1851 (A.K.A. the KJV), and the Scrivener's Textus Receptus (Gal. 1:8, though there are no variants, so any text-type has the same reading).
In response to papercup's question I quoted the English Standard Version (Crossway Bibles, 2001), an update to the AV; because it clearly marks the places where the OT is being quoted and where Peter is commenting, which the AV does not.
Registered User
Posts: 14
(4/11/02 12:00 am) Reply
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
Galations 1; 8-9: (KJV)
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Only *slightly* varied if at all hmm?
Kim
@~~~<~~~~<~~~~<~~~
"Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets."
(Luke 6:22 - 23)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 138
(4/11/02 12:18 am) Reply
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
Paul is talking about the content of the euaggelion--the Gospel--to the Galatians; if any preach something they call the "Gospel" which is different in content than the Gospel that had been delivered to them, they "be accursed" (KJV). The Greek is anaqema estw--"[they] are cursed." There is no variant reading in any Greek manuscript at that point, they all read "anaqema estw". To try and make this passage speak about Bible translations is to twist it out of all possible meaning that the Apostle had in his mind when he spoke it. The issue being addressed is the content of the Gospel, not the translation of the Bible.
Also, that quotation from Luke 6 says; "for the Son of Man's sake" and in the parallel text in Matthew 5; "for my sake"--are LDS/RLDS persecuted for Christ's sake, or for the sake of The Prophet in Utah/Missouri? I would submit that it is the latter as The Prophet has plainly contradicted the words of Jesus and the prophets many times.
"As man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become". (James Talmage; Articles of Faith, p. 430).
Cf. "God is not a man..." (Num. 23:19, JST: the Inspired Version, 1833).
-J
S.D.G
soundoff
Unregistered User
(4/11/02 1:19 am) Reply
The Angel of Light
We must ask ourselves if the Mormon church believes in the same Jesus as the bible converses with their readers and believers.
This is not a question if one is saved or not. For salvation comes before believing. The thought cannot come before life. One must be born again in order to believe the gospel.
The main controversy would be how the Mormons believe in Jesus.
A careful study would show that the Mormons do not believe in the same Jesus.
The Mormons deny the the eternal Jesus as being Co-Equal with the Father.
The Mormons deny that the fullness of the Godhead lies within Jesus.
The Mormons deny the Incarnation.
The Mormons claim that Jesus was a brother to satan the devil.
The weird doctrine of Mary being pregnant by the Father on the planet kolob for some physical sexual act is not even remotely close to what the bible says.
Another teaching about Jesus is He is the only Savior of this planet among many other Saviors who have planets of their own. So God has many who have become Saviors.
As Walter Martin once said in his book called "The Kingdom of the Cults", Mormons have the most fantastic fairy tale of any fairy tale known.
I have to agree with Martin because the bible refutes everyone of these points about Jesus.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
We can see in the verse below that God himself is talking about how he will be pierced. This word pierced means in the Hebrew one who has been pierced by a spear of javelin.
Keeping this particular word in its context makes it different than when the Hebrews used the translated word pierced to mean, "a lion who tears".
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
The final question is how does God get pierced unless He becomes incarnate as Jesus? A Spirit does not get pierced.
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
Monkee, you had previously stated:
"The Bible presents the office of prophet as a historical function that God ordained in order to bring His words to His people, and then to build the Old Testament Church, as well as to vindicate His claim to be the only God there is.
Now that the historical function is completed, the office is completed. God has nothing new to tell His people,"
Now, I realize this is only your opinion, but I see it as flawed, and here's why:
1. If He had nothing more to tell, Jesus sure thought different, not only did he tell us *volumes* more, he even boar more prophesy himself...
b) Jesus acknowledged John the Baptist as being a prophet;
Luke 7;28:
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
More mention of prophecy and *not* just for teachings sake:
Acts 21:8 - 10:
8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Cæsarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the cevangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judæa a certain prophet, named Agabus.
Then it continues, a prophecy of *warning*, much more than mere teaching:
Acts 21:11:
11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
And of course, your version of Joel's prophecy:
Note** in the LAST DAYS...
" 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
And finally, because I need some sleep tonight... *grin*
1 Corinthians 12:27 - 28:
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
How can you say all prophecy was only meant for people in the Old Testament? Why is it stated right above, the things which should remain active in the Church yet you say it isn't so...
*yawn*
Nite.
Kim
@~~~<~~~~<~~~~<~~~
"Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets."
(Luke 6:22 - 23)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 139
(4/11/02 2:36 am) Reply
Re: Prophets.... Why is it that:
"1. If He had nothing more to tell, Jesus sure thought different, not only did he tell us *volumes* more, he even boar more prophesy himself...
b) Jesus acknowledged John the Baptist as being a prophet;
Luke 7;28:
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
I used the present tense, "is,"--in other words, the office is now, at the present moment in time, completed. I agree that there were prophets in the New Testament period. Not now.
Notice also that the "volumes" that Jesus told were not all recorded, only what was necessary:
"...there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." (John 21:25, KJV).
And that Jesus only revealed what was concealed in the OT, and didn't speak anything new (Mat. 12:3, 5; 19:4; 22:31; John 8:38; 17:16-19; etc.).
Paul told Timothy by the Holy Spirit; "...from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim. 3:15-17, KJV). He said this speaking of the OT. Even the OT is sufficient in itself to make one wise unto the faith which is in Christ Jesus--to make one perfect (full, complete) and equipped to do everything good! :)
"More mention of prophecy and *not* just for teachings sake:
Acts 21:8 - 10:
8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Cæsarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judæa a certain prophet, named Agabus.
Then it continues, a prophecy of *warning*, much more than mere teaching:
Acts 21:11:
11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
Again, I never said that prophecy only refers to teaching. That is the main function of a prophet in the New Testament period, though there were revealers in the New Testament period. But even the prophets (revealers) of the New Testament period (Cf. Simeon, Luke 2:25-32), spoke nothing binding on the whole Church, as OT prophets did--Agabus didn't forbid Paul to go to Jerusalem, he simply, through the Spirit, predicted what would happen when he did. and notice, the mark of the true prophet, such as Agabus, was that what he predicted came to pass.
"And of course, your version of Joel's prophecy:
Note** in the LAST DAYS..."
Firstly, this isn't "my version" I didn't translate it, I quoted it, it is the English Standard Version, as mentioned above. Secondly, it is faithful to the Greek text that underlies it and is very literal. Tirdly, even if one used a horrible translation such as Rotherham's "Emphasized Bible" or the Emphatic Diaglott, the sense of the text remains the same.
The way not to do Biblical interpretation is implicitly exemplified here; we are not to start out with our own theological conceptions of a phrase (e.g., "last days"), then attempt to make the text fit. We have to define our theological conceptions by the text. Peter clearly says that Joel's prophecy was being fulfilled then (the day of Pentecost), in the sight of the people who were present. This means that we must (if we are to "rightly divide the Word") define "last days" as applying to that time period. What does that mean? Well, most logically if "last days" applied to that time period, the Cross was seen as the divider of history--everything before the Cross and everything after--so that "last" would refer to everything after, not proximity to the second coming (Cf. Heb. 1:1-2 where the term is given exactly this sense).
"1 Corinthians 12:27 - 28:
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
How can you say all prophecy was only meant for people in the Old Testament? Why is it stated right above, the things which should remain active in the Church yet you say it isn't so..."
I never said prophecy was meant for only people in the Old Testament, I read the prophets all the time and gain tremendous insight, by the Spirit; I also didn't say it was only given to people in the Old Testament. What I did say was that the office of prophet had a historical function--a purpose in history--that, once completed, no longer made the office necessary. this seems to be the Biblical teaching.
Also, Paul doesn't specify what type of prophet he is speaking of there; as he uses the term in two ways, it could be a prophet (teacher) or prophet (revealer), but it would seam that because he uses the word that means "teach" in the context, he had a revealer in mind.
The thing to notice is that he doesn't say anything about these gifts being active in the Church; in fact when we turn to the next chapter we find that "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (13:8-10, KJV).
Literally: "Love never fails. But if prophecies, they will be caused to cease [or, made inoperative]; if tongues, they will cease [or, cease themselves (middle voice)]; if knowledge, it will be caused to cease [or, made inoperative]. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the full [or, complete] thing* comes, then that in part will be caused to cease." *Cf. James 1:4 "...let patience have its complete work, that you may be complete..."
"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three..." (v. 13), these are the gifts we expect until His coming. I submit that the "full thing" has come in regards to binding prophecy (revealing), as it has fulfilled its historical function.
"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." (Luke 16:16, KJV).
Anyone who says that the Lord is speaking to them now, a message that is binding on the Church Universal, they are adding to the complete Word of God, and they do so at the peril of having the plagues of the book of Revelation added to them, and being found as liars (Prov. 30:5-6, Rev. 22:18)--if they do so and contradict the message of the Gospel, then they are cursed (Gal. 1:6-9).
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/11/02 4:00:06 am
Prophets.... Why is it that:
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