Reading the Bible at Face Value
I would like to be projectile with my thoughts and conjoin these with the argument about reading the bible at face value. I want to expound this and investigate this school of thought to see if it is practicable or not.
We should first read the following verse and conjoin this with the idea from KingJehu's school of thought (reading the bible from face value).
Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
I'm looking at the word (all) in this verse. If we were to read this verse at face value then we would believe that it would mean that all men came to Jesus to be baptized.
The question is did all men come to Jesus to be baptized? Well, we know that the bible mentions that his disciples are the ones who were doing the baptizing.
Joh 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
Joh 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
This is not my focus but it is projecting my thoughts on the word (all).
If we read this at face value then would this make the bible any easier to understand? Or can we ask if studying the bible and the translations used with the Greek and learned men who have dedicated their lives would help alleviate the understanding?
I believe we need to study as the Lord gave us teachers to help us learn.
This word "all" at face value would make one think that Jesus baptized all men. But in truth the word "all" in this sentence means many are coming to him. Eventually all of the disciples of John would be with Jesus. It means a continuation and growing process.
And all men come to him (kai pantev erxontai prov auton). Linear present middle indicative, "are coming." The sight of the growing crowds with Jesus and the dwindling crowds with John stirred John's followers to keenest jealousy. What a life-like picture of ministerial jealousy in all ages. {RWP}
Now John Gill expounds the word (all) and makes it a point that it does not mean all men at face value.
"... and all men come to him; that is, "many", as the Syriac and Persic versions render it, even more than came to John; see Joh_4:1. Large multitudes from all parts flocked to hear Christ preach, and great numbers were made disciples by him, and then baptized.
If we read this at face value then we would believe at the time that Jesus disciples were baptizing all men. For this word does not distinguish the meaning "many" or the fact that it means, "growing" crowds.
Remember one who would preach and teach this would teach it at face value and would say in his pulpit that all men came to him. We know by the word in Greek this does not mean what it says at face value.
This is just one example of the many I will give out. I feel this is something worthwhile to debate on.
Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
(It doesn't say that all the men that come to him are baptized by him... just one, that he baptized... and two that "all kinds" gathered around him...)
but I can see what ya mean... and I'm not saying "all" in all cases means all... as I stated before... just the ones in question, as in context... I believe means all men are called and have a chance at the love and grace of Christ and salvation... now let me ask you this... Tophat... though the last year or so because of my leg and other reasons I haven't be out there as much as in the past... but I plan to return oneday to where I see results...
So next time I'm in down at a mission or in a alleyway... I'm trying to reach three drunks a junkie and a prostitute "lol it didn't allow the bible term for a lady of the night... lol" ... and my preaching should be... and always will be in truth... and not a lie... and a calvinist would advise me to bring the true message of
"Some of you are chosen as the election, behold what Father has done for you... you are forgiven for all your sins... you should get out of this life you have made... but even if you don't you'll be in heaven, and others of you... your damned to hell... and there is nothing you can do... your doomed... Christ never died for your sin."
I would never preach anything but what I believe is truth... its not a wise thing to tell someone anything other then the truth of the word... this would be the fundamental "milk" of Calvinist faith... that some are saved and others are doomed no matter what... "as I see it..." to try to reach others with anything but the truth would be a lie... so is that about the right message I'm to bring bro? Have I got anything wrong on them points... ?
I'm not even going to get into the judgment day aspect of it... and what to preach there... surely I would in truth have to tell them that judgment day has no effect on their election, salvation or damnation by their mere actions...
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 182
(4/16/02 12:05 am) Reply
Re: Reading the Bible at Face Value
Jehu:
You haven’t examined the context! I tried to examine it when we spoke on 1 Tim 2, you were saying that all means all that that Calvinists have to “change it.” Don’t try and justify yourself now! Stick with the routine you’ve established.
You refuse to look at the context of passages like 1 Tim. 2, and cry out “I don’t need to look!! To me its plain!! It means just what it says!” Now you want to turn around and act like you’ve actually examined the passages at some depth??
You complain that “I’m being persecuted because I believe God got his words to me...you act like I need to be a scholar” then you want to qualify that some verses don’t mean what they say at “face value.”
At least pick a position and stick with it!
Tophat:
John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and ALL come to him.
...panteV ercontai proV auton
...ALL come to Him
Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and ALL herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
...oti apodekatoute to hduosmon kai to phganon kai pan lacanon
...you tithe mint and rue and ALL herbs
Both passage use the word “all.” Thus you’re exactly right. We have to allow the context and the rest of the Bible to define the meaning, we can’t simply choose our favorite sense of the word, call it “face value” and run happily along--not without doing damage to the message of the Word.
That is exactly the method we see cultists like LDS and JW using, and anyone can see the results by picking up their articles of faith.
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/16/02 12:10:53 am
Re: Reading the Bible at Face Value
so THEN by your stance all NEVER means all LOL
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 184
(4/16/02 5:22 am) Reply
Re: Reading the Bible at Face Value
By my stance:
"We have to allow the context and the rest of the Bible to define the meaning, we can’t simply choose our favorite sense of the word, call it “face value” and run happily along--not without doing damage to the message of the Word."
Re: Reading the Bible at Face Value
Thats my whole point the word is clear Christ died for the sins of the world... EVEN the false prophets... you have to twisted over 150 verses to fit your doctrine... I take them for what the obviously are stating... IF not God wouldn't have had the word written to the english the way it is... unless his intent was to lie... ot hid the truth... yet the word says for all men to study the word... why?
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 189
(4/16/02 6:20 am) Reply
Re: Reading the Bible at Face Value
Isaiah 28:10-13 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
That what I was saying, I'm sorry that you are unhappy about it, but that is how real Scriptural interpretation is done, according to God. Not by finding doctrinal buzzwords in "face value" readings and refusing to allow the Scripture to define its own meaning.
2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Is God a liar because unlearned and unstable men wrest His Words from His meaning? I think not.
Re: Reading the Bible at Face Value
That what I was saying, I'm sorry that you are unhappy about it, but that is how real Scriptural interpretation is done, according to God. Not by finding doctrinal buzzwords in "face value" readings and refusing to allow the Scripture to define its own meaning.
(I'm not unhappy about it, at all bro... one because its not the truth of the word... two because its your free will to believe what ever you wish... and third I could quote verses after verse about how one should read and study the scripture... just like you... and not once does it say man needs to go outside the scriputer to define tha scripture... and isn't that the kjv your using bro? Why if it really doesn't mean what it says?)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 191
(4/16/02 6:47 am) Reply
Re: Reading the Bible at Face Value
The Bible means exactly what it says. I have never said otherwise. It doesn't mean what someone wishes it to say and claims to be a "face value" reading. Many things in God's Word and deep and hidden and are only uncovered through deep study and by examining Scripture by Scripture: line upon line and precept upon precept.
I am quoting the KJV, yes. Just as the KJV translators said in their preface:
"...we do not deny, nay we affirm and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English, set forth by men of our profession...containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. As the King's speech, which he uttereth in Parliament, being translated into French, Dutch, Italian, and Latin, is still the King's speech, though it be not interpreted by every Translator with the like grace, nor peradventure so fitly for phrase, nor so expressly for sense, everywhere. For it is confessed, that things are to take their denomination of the greater part; and a natural man could say, Verum ubi multa nitent in carmine, non ego paucis offendor maculis, etc. [Horace.] A man may be counted a virtuous man, though he have made many slips in his life, (else, there were none virtuous, for in many things we offend all) [James 3:2] also a comely man and lovely, though he have some warts upon his hand, yea, not only freckles upon his face, but also scars. No cause therefore why the word translated should be denied to be the word...notwithstanding that some imperfections and blemishes may be noted in the setting forth of it." (AN ANSWER TO THE IMPUTATIONS OF OUR ADVERSARIES, para. i).
Re: Reading the Bible at Face Value
The Bible means exactly what it says.
(MonkeeSage I agree)
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
2 Corinitains 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (Here it clearly shows he even paid the price for the false ones, that rejected him.)
Mathew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
1 Tim 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1 Tim 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (Again, the word is clear to me, who he came to save, will some reject it, yes.)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 198
(4/17/02 3:57 am) Reply
Re: Reading the Bible at Face Value
No, you obviously don't agree, because you just went on to ignore what the Bible says and to try and make it say "what someone wishes it to say and claims to be a "face value" reading.""
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