The changing role of women in movies
I realize that this is probably a controversial topic, but those are also those who are most worth discussing.
Nolendur told us (in his post about changes in the LOTR movies) how we almost got a Fan's nightmare as a movie, just for the Director's efforts to be 'politically correct'. That reminded me of something that has been getting on my nerves a *lot* lately when going to the movie theater and watching movies.
But let me go back a little... a few decades maybe, and look at the movies there. The usual role of women in movies at the time was just being the love interest of the main character, cowering in a corner, screaming and waiting for the hero to rescue her. I hated that because .. blah, it's not very creative, and not very realistic.
Lately, when I watch movies like "King Arthur" or..."Vanhelsing", and I cringe again, for the straight opposite. Now we have girls who are (still the main character's love interest - I am still waiting for the first hollywood movie who doesn't go out of its way to somehow get one in) fighting better than a whole squad of Marines. Well, it *was* and interesting change the first time, but by now it's just plain boring, because it's ...blah, not creative, and not very realistic.
Can't we somehow get variety in movies, something that gives that actually lets the main female character actually be a character and not just a billboard ad cutout stereotype? If possibly someone that I could relate to and that while watching the movie I could actually believe? (Other than what I presently do when watching those movies, which is think: "Oh, not again! You know, those barbarians over there with the big swords would kill you within ten seconds, but I know you will kick their ass and survive, because that main character needs his gal to marry at the end..."
Well, these are my thoughts. Feel free to comment, add...bash.
(Perhaps in one of my next posts I will address the matter of the lately so popular super heroes, and the fact that while the bad guys tend to die when falling down one step, the good guys jump down ten to twenty meters without a scratch..)
I would agree with you 100% were not because this:
Quote:when I watch movies like "King Arthur"
I am sorry, I disagree. "King Arthur" is NOT a movie, it's a <censored>.
:P
(As for Van Helsing, I fell asleep in theater, seriously, only remember the first fifteen minutes or so and to have been nudged and told "let us go?"...)
Quote:The usual role of women in movies at the time was just being the love interest of the main character, cowering in a corner, screaming and waiting for the hero to rescue her.
Well... more or less this is the role women had in the world until a while ago, with a few, very few exceptions. If movies are based upon Real Life, to display another would not be realistic. Yet, if movies are based upon an original fantasy or sci-fi world, that's entirely different.
Quote:Can't we somehow get variety in movies, something that gives that actually lets the main female character actually be a character and not just a billboard ad cutout stereotype?
One of my favorite movies of all times is "Lady Hawke" (not only because I fell for Michelle Pfeiffer :P) but, too, because I like the role she played there. More examples of "adventure" movies which women's role or character concept I liked (it doesn't mean I like the actress) are: Karen Allen in "Raiders of the Lost Arc"; Melanie Griffith in "Shining through"; Carrie Fisher in "Star Wars"; Gwynneth Palthrow in "Shakespeare in Love"; Sophie Marceau (the Princess of Wales) in "Braveheart".
And many more. I did not include movies based (well-based) upon RL's facts or already published books such as "Elizabeth", "Queen Margot" or "Dangerous Liaisons" (the Princess of Wales&William Wallace is pure fantasy). All of them are fighting women, physically or mentally, and did not need to be Xena.
IMHO, there is possible to do those movies with those women you crave so much, Andranneth, but I guess that it is (again) but a matter of merchandising. As for to be or not "politically correct", I am more interested to be "historically correct" ;) One of my RL favourites heroines (if not the most) of all times is Eleanor of Aquitanie, and I don't think she touched a sword in all her life, if not by accident.
Quote:I am sorry, I disagree. "King Arthur" is NOT a movie,
Oh, it's a movie alright, even enjoyable in places. All you have to do is forget about the legend of King Arthur, history and all that and take is just as an invented story for sweet and not too complicated hollywood movies.
(And I still plan to somemday get the DVD and watch it with the original soundtrack because the German dubbed version was... *shudder*)
Quote:Karen Allen in "Raiders of the Lost Arc", Carrie Fisher in "Star Wars"..
Yes! That was one of the first of that kind that I saw - and greatly enjoyed them. The great this is that it's fully in character, done interestingly, stong characters but not overdone. Leia is a tough woman, wonderful and able leader, but she does not defeat a stormtrooper with her bare hands. Same with "Raiders of the Lost Arc", it's believable, and in that one can really relate to the character.
It *can* be done - and they were all great movies, so hollywood can't tell me it doesn't work. Still, it seems Hollywood will continue going the easy road and just using the stereotypes, whichever are fashionable at the time.
And I think you are coreect about the historical part (I'd rather throw 'politically correct' to the wind, too). All through history women *have* played important parts, ended wars (fun... did one ever start a war?), lead nations, united people... but usually it was not related to swinging sword - I suppose because if they had tried this their effort would have been a very short one and ended with a very sudden death.
Quote:All through history women *have* played important parts, ended wars (fun... did one ever start a war?), lead nations, united people...
Well, Helen of Troy started a good one ;)
Eleanor of Aquitaine, Elizabeth I of England, Catherine II of Russia, Catherine of Médicis, Marie (Catherine) Leszczynska (the two last were Queens of France)... Oooh, loads of women with a brain and a temper. No, they did not need to swing a blade but a pen, or to whisper a few words into the right ears ;)
Ah, to have a chance to meet and deal with one of those women, what a challenge :D
Re: The changing role of women in movies
I may not be contributing at this time to this thread because, as a typical American, I know little of the history of the real women you are talking about. But I have felt for a long time that both television and movies need very badly to portray real women. And if you want to see odd women, just watch American soap operas...
Today I saw a television commercial for some kind of treatment for menopause. I was startled because I did not recognize the actress doing the pitching, other than slightly, like, "She reminds me vaguely of someone..."
It turned out she is one of the original TV "Charlie's Angels"--a pretty old show compared to the ages of most people on this board. I thought, "Wow, you are pitching a menopause product, have to be 50, and you look younger than you did when you filmed the original series! Who is your surgeon?"
That is one thing I would end right now in movies, TV, commercials--everywhere: PERFECT FACES AND BODIES. Get real. Get the characters right, and stop concentrating only on the young 20s who spend 37 hours every day working on their six-pack. Give us real people and real bodies and real portrayals.
Re: The changing role of women in movies
What worries me the more, Ithiloth, is the kind of children/teenagers/even grown men and women this society is bringing up, too focused in trivialities (well, in my opinion) such as to look beatiful and young forever (and so are a lot of girls with anorexia and eating disorder) or to go to disco from dusk to dawn (I love Tarantino, couldn't resist it!) instead to have hobbies such a sport, reading, to visit museums etc. Not to mention to worry for things like environment and ecology, to help the Third World, human rights, trade unionism, politics, etc. Ok, ok, I know some young people worry about but...
Actually, not in the way I understand 'start' a war... it was started because of her, but she didn't tell anyone to launch the ships of sharpen those swords.
Quote:you are pitching a menopause product, have to be 50
Not necessarily. In advertising a lot is said, especially people saying "I like this" or "I always do.." and it's not true at all. Been there, done that, it's just the way it's done. And I can easily believe them picking people who are much younger for advertising a product like this, just to have it all look 'attractive'.
I don't think it's a good developement. Actresses are cast more for looks than acting skills (which admittedly is no more than a nuisance, and actually seems to get better lately), girls start dieting at an age where the body needs every bit of nutrition it gets... that focus on superficial things is just dangerous.
RE
What I meant about the age of this particular actress was that, based on how old she was when the series came out, she has to be 50 or so now, and yet she looked like a plastic surgeon's success story. I was annoyed by that, because she looked fine before. I saw her in a movie just a few years ago, and she looked really good, and not at all in the need of surgery to make her look 22 again.
I agree with both of you gentlemen. I am a strange American because I think of things other than trivialities (okay, I think about some of those too, but I *am* human) and want to see my age range portrayed as valuable and able. Nolen, I think you and I are in the same age range.
The worst thing that ever happened to America (okay, I could name about a million things here) is the shift in focus from outward--How can I help you?--to inward--How can you help me? This also involves a shift toward selfishness and the focus on outward appearance rather than inner beauty, and trivialities just become a natural part of the shifting. America is a mess right now because of this skewed shifting, increasing shallowness.
And it shows up in advertising, movies, and casting for all kinds of entertainments. Except, in many cases, for rock stars, who seem to be more popular the worse they look. Odd.
Re: RE
I have to laugh at the last point: It is very distracting if I am seeing some rock star (not my favorite kind of music anyway) perform and he/she looks deliberately ugly. Age doesn't matter, but if they give themselves stringy hair, look gaunt, and wear clothes that look like they came from a garbage dumpster, is that visual supposed to make the music sound better? I don't demand beauty, but why deliberately make oneself look ugly?
Seriously though, it is alarming that there is so much emphasis on looking perfect and agelessly young, not to mention trying to turn women into action heroes at all costs. It has not helped society. Princess Leia and (the other one) are exceptions.
I liked the main women in the "Troy" movie pretty well (including Achilles' mother): They were very much needed, strong, had a lot of influence on the men, but weren't warriors and didn't look like fashion models. For similar reason, I also really liked the village woman in Rohan in TTT: She seemed so real and admirable, her and her children, people anyone would want to fight for.
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