soundoff
Unregistered User
(4/15/02 12:55 am) Reply
Who is the Over Comer?
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
This verse is used many times to disprove that one can lose their salvation. The real question is can this verse be used against those who believe that one has eternal security? It sort of seems funny to me that we use the word "eternal" with the word "security" to apply that this would mean security that is forever and never can be lost. And then make the claim that when we accept Jesus we have eternal life, but this does not mean eternal or forever because we can lose it.
Strange paradox.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
We can see that John expresses that whatsoever is born of God over comes the world.
The Christians will over come the world because they are now new creatures in Christ.
Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Jesus was saying in Revelations 2:7 that He hated the Nicolaitan doctrines. These were false prophets and teachers, etc. These people would not be the ones who would over come because they are teaching it. If these people did overcome and seen their false ways then they could also eat of the tree of Life. These people had not yet eaten of the tree of Life. Jesus made an offer for them to eat of the Tree of Life if they overcame. But how does one overcome?
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
The unregenerate man does not have the Spiritual Ears that Jesus said this message was for. He was saying to them who had the spiritual ears that those who would overcome would be the ones who would eat of the Tree of Life.
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Because we are born of God and our faith is not of ourselves the bible says it is by His faith are we saved. The bible says He is the Captain of our Salvation and His faith He cannot deny. Jesus is not going by our faith but those who are born again are the over comers.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Only those who could reject such teachings are of the true Spirit. Yet we can shipwreck our faith. Although our faith will be shipwrecked if we do not follow Him it is his faith that keeps us forever for He cannot deny His faith.
If our faith becomes wrecked then God cannot use us as a CandleStick but must put us on the shelf for another use. As Paul described this when he used the word ship wrecked. A word that means in the Greek one who did not get used for his original purpose but still can get glory out of it.
Maybe this is all in the plans of God for those who ruind their walk with God but yet God still brought them home for His Glory. What wonderful Grace of God we have here so deep that it even forgives the one who ship wrecked his faith.
This would be another kind of Glory for Gods Grace to be shown and not just a shallow one. The Bible says, where sin abounds Grace abounds much more.
Sin is no longer the one who has the reigns as it had done through Adam. Death rules through Adam and is no longer the King either.
Grace and eternal life now reigns through Jesus. Death must bow before Grace! Other wise death had victory over GRace and that sounds like Grace is not as deep as sin. When sin can bound much deeper than Grace then those words in the Bible are not true.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What law will condemn me?
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. In Christ their is no longer any law that can condemn us. Without the law then who is my accuser?
I'm made free from the law and no longer can come under condemnation.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
If one can lose their salvation according to this scripture then I broke a law of some kind. The law of disobedience? Nope.
My conclusion is this verse cannot mean one can lose their eternal salvation because it does not fit the meaning in the context.
"Where sin abounds Grace abounds much more"
JaRay
paperbackwriter
Unregistered User
(4/20/02 9:17 pm) Reply
Good points
Expressing this much over this verse and writing to an extreme measure is very impressive JaRay. Excellent thoughts, and such skill in writing your ideas JaRay.
Sandy
Lauri837 Registered User
Posts: 1
(9/13/03 4:06 pm) Reply
Re: Good points
Salvation is the free gift of GOD. We can choose to recieve or reject it at any time. GOD does not force, we are free to make choices all through our lives.
Ezekiel 18:21 ¶But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Proverbs 3:1 ¶My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
Proverbs 4:4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.
Proverbs 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.
John 14:15 ¶If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Isaiah 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
Matthew 5:17 ¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
KingJehu
Unregistered User
(9/17/03 9:28 pm) Reply
Hmmmmmm?
So then it does take actions on our part? Fruits to be known by, and not by grace alone?
Lauri837 Registered User
Posts: 2
(9/25/03 4:27 pm) Reply
Re: Are we willing to recieve the gift of salvation?
Salvation is by Grace alone - the Gift of GOD through Jesus Christ.
We can accept or reject it. God does not force it on us.
If we accept it we are willing for Jesus to enter our lives and change us - to be born again.
Romans 6:1 ¶What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
I don't change myself. My works cannot save me.
My only options are to turn toward God or away from Him.
But after I have accepted Him, I still have the freedom to turn away.
The following passage gives examples of people who have turned from their righteousness (given to them by God) and others who turned from iniquity, back toward God and the righteousness He offers.
Ezekiel 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
KingJehu
Unregistered User
(9/30/03 8:34 pm) Reply
Well. . .
Well that's neither here nor there and has nothing to do with the subject at hand. . . the question is, do we as servants of God, have to produce good fruits "works" as part of the salvation plan. . . ?
KJV Mathew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
KJV Mathew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Blssings. . .
Lauri837 Registered User
Posts: 3
(10/3/03 8:37 pm) Reply
Re: faith or works - how about both?
How about this? On topic?
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
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