Jesus is Master(Lord), Jesus is NOT GOD.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was ."
Now in the verse above, you guys claim Jesus is 100% man and 100% God, so which nature was praying in the verse above?
If you say the human nature, then you have a HUGE problem since the human nature was NOT before the world was.
And if you say the GOD nature is praying then you still have a HUGE problem because we clearly see Jesus asking the Father to give the Son the glory which the Son "ONCE " HAD".
And we know God does not change: Mal 3:6 For I the LORD, I change NOT ; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
First, you are only offering two ways to answer that you would accept.
So, you are attempting to control the outcome to suit yourself. That is wrong.
Using scripture, I say...
God and Jesus are one.
John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 10:30
"I and my Father are one."
1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
Revelations 19:13-16
"And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in Heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
John 14:9
"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"
-------------------
Simply put, the word 'trinity' was used to describe the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost... together as one, as Jesus said they are.
Jesus said that He and God are one. To dispute that is to call Jesus a liar.
I trust God and Jesus with my eternal soul, and I love them for the Love they have given to me.
Jesus died for all of us. He set the example for all of us to follow, to love each other above yourself. Even unto death.
Now, Jesus was God in the flesh, but He didn't want us to worship the flesh, so He taught us to pray to God the Father.
Anything we want, ask God in Jesus' name, and it shall be given.
Jesus was with God before the world was, but in spirit not in flesh. There was not yet flesh made. So, as Jesus walked the Earth in a fleshly body, He prayed as ordinary men should pray, to teach all of us the way.
May God Bless all of you, and to alll I wish a safe and happy 4th of July.
Peace and Love of Jesus Christ upon all of you, today and all tomorrows!
~The greatest test of courage on earth is to bear defeat without losing heart.~
Re: Jesus is Master(Lord), Jesus is NOT GOD.
Well? What's the matter all this time and still no reply?
Maybe I should post it again.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was ."
Now in the verse above, you guys claim Jesus is 100% man and 100% God, so which nature was praying in the verse above?
If you say the human nature, then you have a HUGE problem since the human nature was NOT before the world was.
And if you say the GOD nature is praying then you still have a HUGE problem because we clearly see Jesus asking the Father to give the Son the glory which the Son "ONCE " HAD".
And we know God does not change: Mal 3:6 For I the LORD, I change NOT ; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Christ is God
CiW,
you amaze me how you debate by trying to control the premises as if, or and "and" type of choices. Either this way or it is no way.
John Gill explains what you do not understand and if you do not understand what John is saying then I will teach you it. Remember Jesus is not receiving here as you claim because He had always had the glory but He is talking about the kind of glory to sit with the Father on the Father's throne. Jesus is talking about him being the Messiah as He was but as the Messiah He did not have the same Glory yet like He had before the world. This kind of glory he wanted was to sit with the Father on His right hand side.
Nature has nothing to do with this as you claim. This is talking about him getting to ascend with the Father back to glory but not divine glory for he never lost that nor his human nature because his human nature is only a nature and not a person.
Read John Gill and read it well....
Verse 5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self,.... Not with his perfections, these he had, they dwelt bodily in him; or with his nature, in which he was one with him; but as Mediator, with his glorious presence in heaven, by setting him at his right hand, and crowning him with glory and honour. The Jews have a notion that God will give to the King Messiah, hlem lv dwbkh Nm, "of the supreme glory" {g}: the glory Christ prays for is, as he says,
the glory which I had with thee before the world was; the same phrase with Mlwel, or Mlweh Mdwq, used by the Jews {h}. This is not to be understood of the glory of the human nature of Christ, abstractly considered; for that is no person of itself, but what is taken up into personal union with the Son of God; and therefore cannot be intended by this personal character I; nor did it exist from eternity; it was indeed written in God's book of predestination, even all its members, when as yet there were none of them in actual being; it was set up in God's thoughts and counsel, as the pattern and exemplar of human nature;
it had a federal union with the Son of God, or a covenant subsistence with him; and in the Old Testament Christ was often spoken of as man, because of his frequent appearances in an human form, and because of the certainty of his incarnation; but he did not really and actually exist as man, until he took flesh of the virgin;
for Christ, as man, is the seed of the woman, the son of David, Abraham, and Adam; he is called the last and second Adam, and was not as man before the first: the Old Testament speaks of his incarnation as future, nor is it possible that a creature can exist before time; for as soon as a creature exists, time begins, which is nothing else than the measure of a creature's duration; nor was the human nature of Christ with the Father from eternity; nor had it a glory before the world began, neither in whole, nor in part: nor is the glory of the divine nature abstractly considered here meant; this glory indeed Christ had from everlasting; he had it with his Father, in common with him, being in union to him; and it is true that it was in some measure veiled and covered in his state of humiliation;
for though there were some breakings forth of it in that state, these were seen but by a few; wherefore he is thought by some, to pray here for the manifestation of this glory; but this glory was essential to him, was his natural right, and not to be prayed for, and which he then had as much as ever, and of which there could be no suspension: but this designs the glory of him as Godman, and Mediator; he was not only predestinated to be a Mediator, but was really set up as such from everlasting,
and had a mediatorial fulness of grace put into his hands, and had the honour and glory of that office given unto him by the other two persons; and now that he might appear to be what he was, to be made, that is, made manifest that he was both Lord and Christ, he here prays; which was to be done, upon his ascension to heaven, and session at the right hand of God, by the pouring down of the Holy Ghost.
end
Now the kind of glory He was talking about would not contradict God being Jesus because of your question. It does not even relate to how you are thinking such as "receiving" for his divine nature, nor his human nature but restoring His position with the Father by sitting with the Father with full authority and glory.
God did not have to do any kind of change and still we can say He changes not/
Oh Really?
I think you do not understand what I have posted because it explains it very well. In fact I think you are only trying to be a troll and be annoying. You have no ability to debate what is argued against you.
This is not debating but spewing out opinions with no substance.
You say no answer but you have no pillars to back up why you say such things. I seriously doubt that you are a serious student or disciple of Jesus Christ.
If you are one then perhaps you are preaching instead of debating and do not understand the difference. Just because you preach does not mean you are correct,
Your contrivance in using the scriptures for your own lusts as Jude mentions in the epistle of Jude is very contradictory.
You use the verse that says God does not change by trying to make a point about Jesus in not being God. If you used this verse to bring this point up then you either do not understand what God meant by this or you simply are twisting it for your own devices.
If Jesus is not God it brings up to points you cannot pretend that they do not exist. One is when God says I will not share my glory with no other. This means that God could not share his glory with His son. The only way God can share His glory with His Son is if God is the Son.
The other point is Jesus is eternal not as the Jesus as the Second Adam but Jesus as the logos. The Logos was always with God and never was created. Until you can master these two points then you can go too Zecharia 12:10 and study it.
Zechariah 12:10 > And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (KJV)
Simply this verse shows that God was talking of himself being pierced. The word pierce here means by a javelin or a spear.
Now, the way I look at it is this, write a thesis on YOUR ANSWER that no one seems to know what it is but you and post it on here or just plainly shut up.
When you do write it and that is a big "if" because I think you are afraid too then I will send it too some profs I know from some devout universities and even Dallas Theological and lets see how well it pars up in their debate circles.
I can tell you how it would but then again I would have to agree with FleshNBlood and I agree with him in his rebuke toward you.
This board does not play games and I'm surprised that KIng has allowed you to stay on. You think you are a hero for Christ because you think you speak the truth and are being persecuted? Think not because this is a debate forum but even then in real debate circles only so much leniency and clemency can be given. I see your tolerance is not very good on your board when it comes to the same kind of actions you have demonstrated on this board.
Something to think about because you are not debating but spewing out non debatable responses. Like Jesus said either be cold or hot but lukewarm I will spew out.
You are being lukewarm and it is time to either put up or ship out.
Re: Jesus is Master(Lord), Jesus is GOD.
Your mind is already made up.So how can someone change it?
You obviously have no understanding of scripture and make dogmatic assertions based on one verse.
Jesus is NOT God, Jesus is Master like apostles claimed.
Not to be offencive, but now that you are done babbling can you reply to the scripture?
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was ."
Now in the verse above, you guys claim Jesus is 100% man and 100% God, so which nature was praying in the verse above?
If you say the human nature, then you have a HUGE problem since the human nature was NOT before the world was.
And if you say the GOD nature is praying then you still have a HUGE problem because we clearly see Jesus asking the Father to give the Son the glory which the Son "ONCE " HAD".
And we know God does not change: Mal 3:6 For I the LORD, I change NOT ; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Veiled glory
Jesus was 100% man and 100% God what He did on earth was veiled His glory and took on the frailties of humanity.His actions were all examples of how we should live and rely on God our Father.
Now before I go further answer one question.Do you believe that the bible is the complete and infalible word of God given to us,by Him,through the men who put it on paper?
Re: Veiled glory
Sound Off... He is being left on, that you might show him the errors of his ways... and a good job of it you are doing... think he is listening though?
Nope
King,
I really do not think he listens because his arguments are like ad_hocs whom we know very well. You know like "it is not true", "it cannot be". Or, "you never answered my question", "nice try" and "when you do answer my question let me know". Those kind of responses without an argument or reason given back is not debating but is
NONsensical and smoke screening. Sounds like a politician to me lol
Re: Nope
Since you guys do nothing but babble(mean it the nicest way), then when you are ready to give an answer come over to my board under the topic called: CHALLENGE: TRINITY-ONENESS-MODALISM: pub97.ezboard.com/fthewat...D=98.topic
You cannot serve man and God(man/god, what's wrong with your thinking?
You cannot have 100% not God and 100% God at the same time, it does not work like that.
Here is what was said about pagans(trinity): Rom 1:22-23 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
When you are ready to talk with scripture to back up everything you say then come over to my board, otherwise you can babble all you want on this thread and it won't prove anything, I won't be checking back because I know I will only see more babbling.
Re: Nope
Don't waste your time going to CiW's forum.
I did and he actually changed the words in my post to make it appear I said something I did not agree with.
That is an act of a child, not of someone who "claims" to love God.
And, Jesus was praying in the spirit.
Jesus was God in the flesh, and as a spiritual being, He showed the example which He wants us to follow.
Jesus never was 'just a man' like we are.
He was perfect.
We are imperfect.
Glory to God in the Highest!
Peace and Love of the Lord Jesus Christ upon all of you, today and all tomorrows!
~The greatest test of courage on earth is to bear defeat without losing heart.~
give me a break
I say the burden of proof rests on ciw as he is trying to redefine scripture.So my proposal is prove your point and stop making dogmatic assertions based on one verse,then and only maybe then,will we discuss anything further or visit your forum.How many times will your question be answered until you're happy?My guess is only when we succomb to your nosense.
Proverbs 15:2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright ut the mouth of the fools poureth out foolishness.
Re: give me a break
More then one complaint has been made about WIC out and out changing statements on his board... I see no reason why he can't finish this debate up here... I go to many other message boards... but i wont go to his...
Re: give me a break
I looked at his board I think he banned someone for perversion of scripture.I didn't think the guy said anything wrong.CIW must think he has perfect knowledge of scripture and the only interpretation.He gives no quarter to any type of debate it's his way or the highway there.Anyways,he hasn't answered any of our questions.We must keep CIW in our prayers.
Re: give me a break
Seems like your not the only one that has a beef with him or his board... myself I havent gone because my eyes can hardly believe some of the stuff he writes on this board... that and... well the heresy.
Re: Jesus is Master(Lord), Jesus is NOT GOD.
ut the mouth of the fools poureth out foolishness.
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