MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 194
(4/16/02 9:43 am) Reply
Which is more loving?
The charge is generally made that the "God of Calvinism" is unloving and even hateful, but this seems to be just a cavil based on a misunderstanding of Calvinism. If you don't believe it is only a cavil, ask the question yourself:
Which is more a loving;
1. A God who freely chooses some men of the corrupted "lump" of humanity, regenerates their hearts by the Holy Spirit, according to the death of His Son in their place, so that they willfully love Him and seek Him--and does this to show His mercy; but at the same time passes over some (that is, leaves them in their willful sin and rebellion), and will finally judge them and condemn them for their sins--and does this to show His Justice. (Rom. 9:21-23).
OR:
2. A God who gives His Son to die for every single individual in the corrupted "lump" of humanity, though His death actually accomplishes nothing _for_ them in itself, it only appeases God's wrath, and sends the Holy Spirit to "woo" them and "knock on the door of their heart," in the hopes that they will accept his "offer" of the Gospel. God knew from before all creation (omniscience) who would reject His offer and who would accept it, but He still created people who would reject Him--He gave His Son for them and pleads "all day long" with them--then He condemns them to hell for their sins (which His Son already suffored for). He creates people knowing they will reject Him because a) He doesn't care, b) He _needs_ evil to accomplish His purposes (ends justifies the means), or c) He gets some kind of pleasure from it.
Well number #2 of course because it gives all the chance to receive, second your twisting it all around... your way God made some to burn, no choice or chance to receive the love of Christ... the bibles way, all have the chance... just some reject it... so they are without excuse.
(Let me ask you this... why wouldn't God have just made all of us the election... why does he burn others in hell... couldn't he have just made everyone the election... well sure he does... seems your way is way off wack... )
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 199
(4/17/02 3:59 am) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
"Well number #2 of course because it gives all the chance to receive,..."
That is not true. In #2 God knew who would reject Him from eternity, and still created them, knowing that there would be no chance for them to ever accept His "offer" and would be sent to hell. What about the 35 yr. old Chinese man, where was his chance? Why did God create him, since he could only go to hell?
"your way God made some to burn, no choice..."
That's a lie. (I'm not mincing words). I have fully explained my position, everyone chooses what they want to choose. They all have a choice.
According to the Bible, all have a choice and all reject it, unless God regenerates their heart, in which case they will choose to live pleasing to God.
"(Let me ask you this... why wouldn't God have just made all of us the election... why does he burn others in hell... couldn't he have just made everyone the election... well sure he does... seems your way is way off wack... )"
Sure, God COULD HAVE elected everyone. Why didn't He? You must not have read #1.
"...but at the same time passes over some (that is, leaves them in their willful sin and rebellion), and will finally judge them and condemn them for their sins--and does this to show His Justice. (Rom. 9:21-23)."
If it is way off whack, blame the inspired Apostle.
"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
Please answer; which is more loving?
1. The Biblical conception of God creating people who He knows from eternity can only go to hell (Because He desires to make His Justice known)?
OR:
2. Your conception of God creating people who He knows from eternity can only go to hell (Because He doesn't care, or He gets pleasure from sending them, or He needs evil to bring about good)?
P.S. If #2 is wrong, show me exactly how: answer why it is that God creates some, knowing that they will end up in hell with no question about it, and still creates them?
Re: Which is more loving?
That is not true. In #2 God knew who would reject Him from eternity, and still created them, knowing that there would be no chance for them to ever accept His "offer" and would be sent to hell. What about the 35 yr. old Chinese man, where was his chance? Why did God create him, since he could only go to hell?
NO! your the one that claimed he burned in hell, then switched it up... I didn't want to bring it up to make you look wishy washy on your beliefs but since you have...
(The peasant man that never harmed a soul in china in 40 ad, and never heard of Christ... a fair man, pure to his family and friends needs, a man that had no man as an enemy... will he burn in hell?) My question...
EVEN posting the question I asked
1. The man in china that died in 35 ad never never hearing of the Hebrew God, our Father, does this man burn in hell?
Your answer. >>>> Of course.
(In "Can all men be saved or was Calvin right?") (4/2/02 12:17:39 am)
(Then I asked in another post)
#3 All the other people that never confessed Christ as their Lord... before the word was in their land... i.e. The American Indians here before 1472...
Is everyone of them burning in hell. Yes of no?
No. God could have applied the faith of Christ to their heart in regeneration, as He did with Old Testament saints, Hebrews 11 (esp. vss. 39-40), and so, saved some of them.
(Now unless you have some bigotry for the Chinese thats a clear contraction. )
you ask [ Please answer; which is more loving?
1. The Biblical conception of God creating people who He knows from eternity can only go to hell (Because He desires to make His Justice known)?
OR:
2. Your conception of God creating people who He knows from eternity can only go to hell (Because He doesn't care, or He gets pleasure from sending them, or He needs evil to bring about good)?
P.S. If #2 is wrong, show me exactly how: answer why it is that God creates some, knowing that they will end up in hell with no question about it, and still creates them? ]
I hope your not saying either one of them is my view... as I read the word of God because their not... and #2 p.s. answer is simple... God is Love, and wants to share that love with those that truly love Him... Now to do this... Father had to make free will souls, to do otherwise would not be true love of us toward Him... so one has to make a choice if He loves Father, the Light or loves darkness... if one is forced or created for the sole purpose to love "me" then thats not true love at all... another words if your not given the chance to hate God, then Love can't be... I love God because I want to, not because before time was made God decreed "You will love me." Because He loved me first, I love Him... thats a choice...
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 215
(4/17/02 1:32 pm) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
Contradiction? Where?
You: "The man in china that died in 35 ad never never hearing of the Hebrew God, our Father, does this man burn in hell?"
Me: "Of course."
You: "The man in China, that died in say 40 ad and never heard the name of Christ... He lived a loving and respectful life... not harming anyone, and prayed to who he though was God... does he burn in hell? Yes or no?"
Me: "If God didn't regenerate his heart to true faith, yes, he would be judged for his sin and condemned to hell."
You: "All the other people that never confessed Christ as their Lord... before the word was in their land... i.e. The American Indians here before 1472...
Is everyone of them burning in hell. Yes of no?"
Me: "No. God could have applied the faith of Christ to their heart in regeneration, as He did with Old Testament saints, Hebrews 11 (esp. vss. 39-40), and so, saved some of them." (Why do we do anything..., pg. 3, 2 from the top)
I don't see any contradiction. I do see a desperate attempt not to deal with the question.
I ask again: What about the 35 yr. old Chinese man, where was his chance? Why did God create him, since he could only go to hell?
Why Jehu? Don't evade, please, answer. Why did God create that man knowing he would never have a chance to hear of Christ and would go to hell?
More dodging! I didn't ask for for a mealy-mouthed pep-talk on your deep insights about the nature of love. I asked you why God creates people who will go to tell, knowing full well that they will go to hell. Why does He do this, Jehu?
Re: Which is more loving?
"The man in china that died in 35 ad never never hearing of the Hebrew God, our Father, does this man burn in hell?"
Bull MonkeeSage the first time ya answer "Of course."
"The man in China, that died in say 40 ad and never heard the name of Christ... He lived a loving and respectful life... not harming anyone, and prayed to who he though was God... does he burn in hell? Yes or no?"
"The man in China, that died in say 40 ad and never heard the name of Christ... He lived a loving and respectful life... not harming anyone, and prayed to who he though was God... does he burn in hell? Yes or no?"
(THEN switch it up to maybe?)
(The switch it too the Indians could be saved without confessing Christ.)
Why Jehu? Don't evade, please, answer. Why did God create that man knowing he would never have a chance to hear of Christ and would go to hell?
(He doesn't have to confess Christ... I have said that all along, that Father could bring them in without confession of Christ, JUST LIKE I pointed out about Able, Adam, Eve, Noah... and so on, and I'm the one that says He didn't make ANYONE to burn in hell, He gave all the chance to go to heaven... your getting mighty upset... lol, I can almost see the vains popping in your head at these contradictions of yours... like saying a man by nature can't change his nature, and no one has free will... to now we all had a chance )
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 220
(4/17/02 2:01 pm) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
I never said ANYONE could be saved apart the faith of Christ. No switch. You asked me if a Chinese man who didn't know the Father would go to hell, I said "Of course" and if you look at the next question from the same post ("Was Calvin correct...") about infants, I made it clear that God could apply the faith of Christ to hearts that had never heard of him. The second time you asked I just included the disclaimer in the first answer as well. Mabye you find that to be a contradiction, so be it.
Please answer the question, Jehu, and stop avoiding it. I'm not angry. Here it is one more time:
Why does God create anyone when He knows perfectly well that they will end up in hell?
Re: Which is more loving?
Yes you did you said the american indians who never confessed Christ as their Lord could be saved...
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 223
(4/17/02 2:11 pm) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
Never did. Your memory is failing, here look again:
You: "All the other people that never confessed Christ as their Lord... before the word was in their land... i.e. The American Indians here before 1472...
Is everyone of them burning in hell. Yes of no?"
Me: "No. God could have applied the faith of Christ to their heart in regeneration, as He did with Old Testament saints, Hebrews 11 (esp. vss. 39-40), and so, saved some of them." (Why do we do anything..., pg. 3, 2 from the top)
Why does God create anyone when He knows perfectly well that they will end up in hell, Jehu?
Re: Which is more loving?
#3 All the other people that never confessed Christ as their Lord... before the word was in their land... i.e. The American Indians here before 1472...
Is everyone of them burning in hell. Yes of no? (my question)
(your answer) No. God could have applied the faith of Christ to their heart in regeneration, as He did with Old Testament saints, Hebrews 11 (esp. vss. 39-40), and so, saved some of them.
(Now since they didnt confessed Christ before thier death... there is no way the regeneration could have taken place.)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 224
(4/17/02 2:14 pm) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
"God could have applied the faith of Christ to their heart in regeneration..."
Why does God create anyone when He knows perfectly well that they will end up in hell, Jehu?
Re: Which is more loving?
P.S. If #2 is wrong, show me exactly how: answer why it is that God creates some, knowing that they will end up in hell with no question about it, and still creates them? ]
I hope your not saying either one of them is my view... as I read the word of God because their not... and #2 p.s. answer is simple... God is Love, and wants to share that love with those that truly love Him... Now to do this... Father had to make free will souls, to do otherwise would not be true love of us toward Him... so one has to make a choice if He loves Father, the Light or loves darkness... if one is forced or created for the sole purpose to love "me" then thats not true love at all... another words if your not given the chance to hate God, then Love can't be... I love God because I want to, not because before time was made God decreed "You will love me." Because He loved me first, I love Him... thats a choice...
(Its on this same forum so i guess your just not reading my posts?)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 231
(4/17/02 3:10 pm) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
I read that, there is no answer in that jumbled mess!
"God is Love, and wants to share that love with those that truly love Him... Now to do this... Father had to make free will souls, to do otherwise would not be true love of us toward Him... so one has to make a choice if He loves Father, the Light or loves darkness... if one is forced or created for the sole purpose to love "me" then thats not true love at all... another words if your not given the chance to hate God, then Love can't be... I love God because I want to, not because before time was made God decreed "You will love me." Because He loved me first, I love Him... thats a choice..."
How does that answer this question: "Why does God create anyone when He knows perfectly well that they will end up in hell?"?
Were you trying to imply that God can't bring about the good of "free will" and love without evil or something?
Re: Which is more loving?
"God is Love, and wants to share that love with those that by free will, truely love Him...
Now to have free will to love, one must have free will to reject as well... or its not true love... I love my wife because I want to by free will, not because she created me to love her... and me have no say in it, that's not love... same with God.
So he created everyone with a free will to love or hate Him... we all had the chance to reject him or accept Him and His love by choice... and thats free will.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 233
(4/17/02 4:09 pm) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
So God creates some people knowing they will go to hell because He can't bring about the good of "free will" and love without creating some people who will go to hell?
Re: Which is more loving?
So God creates some people knowing they will go to hell because He can't bring about the good of "free will" and love without creating some people who will go to hell?
No... God creates all people, giving them free will to love God or reject him... those that reject Him die in their sin, and are judged because they love darkness more then God. It is their free will to remain in sin though, not Gods...
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 237
(4/17/02 5:01 pm) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
He doesn't know who will use their "free will" to reject Him, before He creates them?
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