because otherwise He would have created nothing more then a bunch of drone robot souls incapable of true emotions, just programmed to love Him... that isn't true love...
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 253
(4/18/02 4:15 pm) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
So God creates some people knowing they will go to hell because He can't bring about the good of "free will" and love without creating some people who will go to hell?
Re: Which is more loving?
No... God creates all people, giving them free will to love God or reject him... those that reject Him die in their sin, and are judged because they love darkness more then God. It is their free will to remain in sin though, not Gods...
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 256
(4/18/02 4:23 pm) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
You're not answering, answer the question please. I did not asked why people reject God. I asked, why would God create anyone, knowing they would only reject Him, and would go to hell? Please answer that question.
Re: Which is more loving?
You already asked that question and I answered it the same way as above... you didn't have any problems with it then... just asked another question... which I answered as well... second your putting the question like it was Gods will they burn... it seems to me... which it is not... He would that all men repent...
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 257
(4/18/02 4:35 pm) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
If this was your answer:
"because otherwise He would have created nothing more then a bunch of drone robot souls incapable of true emotions, just programmed to love Him..."
Then God creates some people knowing they will go to hell because ("otherwise") He can't bring about the good of "free will" and love.
Re: Which is more loving?
Okay I guess ya can say that... BUT its not His will they burn in hell... BUT they never cared about His will... nor wanted to do His will... so He even gave them what they wanted...
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 262
(4/18/02 5:00 pm) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
I agree.
But which is more loving; God creating some knowing they would go to hell, and allowed it because it would show His justice (though He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked)--OR--God creating some knowing they will go to hell in order to secure the good of "free will"?
The second is an example of "ends justifies the means." I contend that it is less loving, because on that type of justification, then Hitler might have been a very good person--after all, God could not have allowed eveyone else "free will" unless Hitler was created, and "free will" is a good thing, so Hitler must be part of a greater good (brining about "free will") and thus his actions only seem evil to us, but aren't really.
I don't see how it can escape that consequence. If God allows evil because He can't bring good without it, then there really is no such thing as evil, there is only "good"--the ends and means are both part of one greater good, thus neither can be evil--the only reason they would look evil is because we took them by themselves without considering the greater good they are the means to.
Re: Which is more loving?
No I disagree with your assessment of #2, say for instance a child is born on a deserted island, and his parents die before he is taught good and evil, or about God or Satan, he will still have a understanding that some things are good to do, and others evil, and also by rom 1:20, the evidence of God is everywhere... not just in scripture. In other words... one doesn't need examples of evil to know what is evil on the large scale of evilness... one wouldn't need to see someone murder... to know murder is wrong... He would feel he did something wrong after he murdered, whether he knew Hilter or not.
By your assement on #1 its as if God condons the evil... that goodness might prevail, or be known... if I am understanding it right... To me Father knew some would rebel, but in order to have some souls recieve His love willingly, He is willing to be just, and let all have what they wish... one doesn't want the will of God imposed on Him... so God doesn't impose His will on them... they get just what they want... and others... do want to do Fathers will and not their own... so God imposes on them to do His will... just as they want... everybody gets what they want... and none are without excuse... in this way, God not only was just, giving all the same choice, but gives each want they really wanted in their heart... plus not condoning sin...
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 272
(4/18/02 9:33 pm) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
"No I disagree with your assessment of #2,..."
Me: "Then God creates some people knowing they will go to hell because ("otherwise") He can't bring about the good of "free will" and love."
You: "Okay I guess ya can say that..."
Do you now disagree with that?
I agree with you that God is known from all of the created world, by an innate knowledge that all men have, so that they are without excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, so that He is perfectly just in darkening their hearts (Rom. 1:18-21).
"By your assement on #1 its as if God condons the evil... "
I do not believe that God condones evil, but that He ordains it, to His own purpose. He allows evil, that much is obvious from looking at the world, and aloowing cannot be said to be "unwilling," it is willing; the question is to what purpose? It is not the same purpose as the person commiting the evil, it is God's own purpose; I do not believe that God needed to allow evil.
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:17-18 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
"To me Father knew some would rebel, but in order to have some souls recieve His love willingly, He is willing to be just, and let all have what they wish..."
But why did God, knowing that some would rebel, still create them?? I don't understand why you believe that God needed to create people He knew would reject Him in order to create people He knew would receive Him and those who would receive Him still have free choice.
If God controls how long a person lives, why doesn't He let everyone live until they accept Christ? Why create anyone knowing they are going to go to hell?
Me: "Then God creates some people knowing they will go to hell because ("otherwise") He can't bring about the good of "free will" and love."
You: "Okay I guess ya can say that..."
Do you now disagree with that?
(No I agreed that you could put it that way... but then you added this the next post.)
The second is an example of "ends justifies the means." I contend that it is less loving, because on that type of justification, then Hitler might have been a very good person--after all, God could not have allowed eveyone else "free will" unless Hitler was created,
(This is the part I disagree with, I don't believe anyone had to be evil for one to know evil. Hilter had the free will to kill or not kill... to recieve Christ or not to... by his hearts desire he killed... which was prophecy come true about the jews being scattered to other lands and persecuted, did God make him kill the jews, no, but He knew before hand hilter would. By your way its like God had Hilter kill to show what evil was to show what good is, by the lack there of...)
But why did God, knowing that some would rebel, still create them?? I don't understand why you believe that God needed to create people He knew would reject Him in order to create people He knew would receive Him and those who would receive Him still have free choice.
(Well we been over this bro, in order to have true love, one must be able to make a choice in the matter to love, this leaves open the door to hate also... not all will love him, some will hate him, but in order to get truth in love, you have to give that soul the choice to love, and to have a choice to love means to have a choice not to love.)
If God controls how long a person lives, why doesn't He let everyone live until they accept Christ? Why create anyone knowing they are going to go to hell?
(Well because like He told King David... I have set a date... better tell them to turn before that date... or I won't make them whole... perhaps He sets a dead line because He knows their heart in the end will never turn to Him... it has become to much in love with the dark and wants the sin, God in heaven or not.)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 277
(4/18/02 11:59 pm) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
"(This is the part I disagree with, I don't believe anyone had to be evil for one to know evil. Hilter had the free will to kill or not kill... to recieve Christ or not to... by his hearts desire he killed... "
And since Hitler had to be created, according to you, for "free will" and "real love" to exist, then Hitler would have to be part of a greater good and you can't blame him for doing what God knew he would do when God created him. You wouldn't have "free will" or the ability to have "real love" towards God if Hitler didn't exist, on your view. i don't see how to escape that consequence. if God can't create a world that has no evil in it, but does the best He can, then whatever seems like evil isn't, its the best of all possible worlds, and you should be happy about it, cause you have "free will" and "true love."
"(Well we been over this bro, in order to have true love, one must be able to make a choice in the matter to love, this leaves open the door to hate also... not all will love him, some will hate him, but in order to get truth in love, you have to give that soul the choice to love, and to have a choice to love means to have a choice not to love.)"
Yes, we have been over it, you keep going in circles. So I'll keep asking the question until you answer them. Why does God need to create people He knows will never exercise their "free will" to "love" Him, in order to create people who will exercise their "free will" to "love" Him? Does He need their evil to accomplish good, and is incapable without it? Does He not care? Does He get pleasure from it? If you reject the (Biblical) doctrine of passing over in election, as is demonstrated by Pro. Rom. 9:17-22, etc., then those are the only three options.
Re: Which is more loving?
Yes, we have been over it, you keep going in circles. So I'll keep asking the question until you answer them. Why does God need to create people He knows will never exercise their "free will" to "love" Him, in order to create people who will exercise their "free will" to "love" Him? "I have answered that... yes."
Does He need their evil to accomplish good, and is incapable without it?
(I have answered that, no... the man on the island would know good and evil because adam passed that down by eating the fruit...)
Does He not care?
(No He is Longsuffering, wanting as many as will, to turn from their wicked ways... and have life everlasting.)
Does He get pleasure from it?
(No. But He does get pleasure in His justice being right.)
If you reject the (Biblical) doctrine of passing over in election, as is demonstrated by Pro. Rom. 9:17-22, etc., then those are the only three options.
(I showed you were He called israel his elect, came to HIS people, and they rejected Him.)
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
(here too shows that you better be stable and make sure you keep your election in tact.)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 281
(4/19/02 12:30 am) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
Why does God create people when He knows they will never exercise their "free will" to "love" Him? You already admitted that He knows the future, so He already knows before He creates them. Why does He still create them?
P.S. Paul already showed you that not all who are of Israel are Israel and that it is not as though the Word has taken none effect (Rom. 9:6).
Re: Which is more loving?
Why does God create people when He knows they will never exercise their "free will" to "love" Him? You already admitted that He knows the future, so He already knows before He creates them. Why does He still create them?
(Cripes I have answered this time and time again... in order to have a soul that truly loves, they have to have the choice not to love as well... so in creating souls, and giving them a free will choice, some will pick the "not to love, but reject." The ones that reject the light... get what they wanted... and the ones that love the light rather then the darkness get what they want too, If God just made us love Him then thats not true love.)
P.S. Paul already showed you that not all who are of Israel are Israel and that it is not as though the Word has taken none effect (Rom. 9:6).
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
(to me thats just conferring to the same thing in Revelations... )
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(Ones that say they are of Jacob and the 12 tribes... but are not.)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 288
(4/19/02 1:15 am) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
"(Cripes I have answered this time and time again... in order to have a soul that truly loves, they have to have the choice not to love as well... so in creating souls, and giving them a free will choice, some will pick the "not to love, but reject.""
Indeed. round and round we go. io wish you would answer already.
Let's go step by step:
1) in order to have a soul that truly loves
OK.
2) they have to have the choice not to love as well
OK.
3) so in creating souls, and giving them a free will choice, some will pick the "not to love, but reject."
Why did God still create them when He knew before He created them that they would reject him?
Romans 11:1-8 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
The remnant ("election") is distinguished from blinded Israel as a whole ("the rest").
2) they have to have the choice not to love as well
OK.
3) so in creating souls, and giving them a free will choice, some will pick the "not to love, but reject."
Why did God still create them when He knew before He created them that they would reject him?
(Again because in order to have true love he had to give all a choice.)
And on the second part... as I said... some claimed to be jews but where not, even Herod I don't think was a full jew... but not he doesn't say those of the promise are not of Israel
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 293
(4/19/02 1:57 am) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
"(Again because in order to have true love he had to give all a choice.)"
Again, God already knows the outcome of all choices before He creates anything (Acts 15:18); so why does He knowing create people that will never accept Him? What is His purpose in creating them?
"...but not he doesn't say those of the promise are not of Israel"
I agree. Paul says that not all descended from Abraham are counted as Israel, but the children of promise, that the purpose of election might stand.
Romans 9:6-11 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Paul later, in chapter 11, appeals to the same principle in distinguishing the remnant that would believe (according to the same election of Grace) from national Israel, who were blinded, as a whole.
Re: Which is more loving?
"(Again because in order to have true love he had to give all a choice.)"
Again, God already knows the outcome of all choices before He creates anything (Acts 15:1 ; so why does He knowing create people that will never accept Him? What is His purpose in creating them?
(Again because in order to get a soul to recieve love willing, you have to give it a choice... to accept it or not... some won't. If you just have souls that have no choice in the matter, their not true loving souls but robots.)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 302
(4/19/02 10:46 pm) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
Thank you. Your refusal to answer says more than I could; says it all.
You have a God who KNOWS BEFORE He creates who will always reject Him and end up going to hell, and STILL CREATES THEM because he:
a) enjoys creating people who will go to hell,
b) needs evil to bring about good, or
c) doesn't care.
Obviously the Biblical conception of God creating people, who He knows before He creates them will always reject Him and end up going to hell, because He has freely chosen to use them to display His own justice, is much more loving.
; so why does He knowing create people that will never accept Him? What is His purpose in creating them?
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