I have answered more then once... you just want to limit the answers to what you want... fact the answers can run the gambit, and the answers could be none of the above... mine or yours... but atleast I have verses to back my belief up... and as far as your babies burning in hell i can give you verses that show that God doesn't hold some accountable under 20 years of age...
Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
1 Corinitains 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 307
(4/20/02 1:58 am) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
No, you haven't answered my question, even once (though you came close, then denied your answer). You have been answering questions I never asked.
Once, again, so that it will not be said that I was unfair; I give you a chance to answer. Here is the question:
Taking for granted that
1. God wanted to create people who would love Him; and
2. people could only love Him if they had freedom of choice, and
3. that God knew before He created anyone who would use their freedom of choice to love Him and who would not;
Why does God create people He knows will only use their freedom of choice to reject Him?
or, in other words,
Why doesn't God only create those people whom He knows will use their freedom of choice to love Him?
or, in other word,
What is God's purpose in creating people that He knows will never use their freedom of choice to love Him?
Re: Which is more loving?
Why doesn't God only create those people whom He knows will use their freedom of choice to love Him?
Because thats not free will, thats programming a soul to love you... to give free will means a choice in the matter...
Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
( freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention ) Dont ya get that monkeesage? (Now how could he give us free will, but then say only those that love me will be created if he didn't divinely intervene in the matter?)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 319
(4/20/02 6:26 am) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
As I thought, you refuse to answer the question. Thank you.
"(Now how could he give us free will, but then say only those that love me will be created if he didn't divinely intervene in the matter?)"
We were taking it fore granted that;
1. God wanted to create people who would love Him; and
2. people could only love Him if they had freedom of choice, and
3. that God knew before He created anyone who would use their freedom of choice to love Him and who would not;
were true. Thus God knows before He creates anyone what they will use their freedom of choice to do. God could have created only those people He knew would exercise their freedom of choice to love Him, but did not. You refuse to answer why. That says more than anything else.
Re: Which is more loving?
I just answered you because then it wouldn't bve free will.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 322
(4/20/02 6:48 am) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
It wouldn't be "free will" to create people that God knew would freely choose to love Him??!? So God must not have foreknowledge of the future, since you say all men have "Free will" and His knowing that they would choose Him, in advance of their choice, would negate their "free will"? Is that what you're saying?
Re: Which is more loving?
No He has the foreknowledge that some would reject His salvation... that don't mean He chose it for them... and how could He give us free will... and some not reject it... now your asking why did he not just not create those that would reject Him... and I'm telling you... in order to have free will they must be created... just like us... and that brings us to another point... why even make anything at all? Us or them>?
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 326
(4/20/02 8:03 am) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
"...now your asking why did he not just not create those that would reject Him... and I'm telling you... in order to have free will they must be created... just like us... and that brings us to another point... why even make anything at all? Us or them?"
I have been asking that from the start (and you'll note that I have never said God causes people to reject Him). God can create people who have freedom of choice; He knows how people created with freedom of choice would use it before they are created; thus God can easily create only those people He knows will use their freedom of choice in a way that He approves of. Easily. All He has to do is look at His foreknowledge, see who would reject Him, and then not create those specific people who would reject Him. He doesn't do that, though. You don't want to answer why, fine.
However, it does get into the question of why God created anything, which is answered by Scripture:
Proverbs. 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Eph. 1:11 ...who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will...
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Re: Which is more loving?
Okay then these go hand and hand with it.
Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 329
(4/20/02 9:10 am) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
I'm sure you think they do. The rest of us have no idea what they have to do with WHY God creates anyone.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 332
(4/20/02 9:28 am) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
All the Scriptures you posted are about how God deals with His creatures, not one of them have anything to do with why he creates them.
Re: Which is more loving?
Yeah Im gonna send the 7 bucks in to get rid of the pop ads... well worth it, but sometimes this window itself shoots off to other windows... on mine anyway... Well I'm about done for awhile... bbiab to see what ya got for me... I'll say this MonkeeSage... thought I'm more convinced then ever unlimted atone is what the bible shows... Ya make me think! Which is always good! Tell iHs... I'm gonna lift the ban on him... "again" and please if he wants to post, no insults or infighting... and I'm glad me and you have had this debates without insults
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 341
(4/20/02 10:16 am) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
I don't mean to ever be insulting, in the sense that I want to hurt feelings or something like that, but I do believe that I am supposed to "shoot strait" with you and everyone else, and that sometimes involves calling what I see as being a turkey, "a turkey"...I try to be respectful, but I know I fail and my tennor is rather terse and harsh, and it shouldn't be, and I apologize for that, but as for shooting strait...I gotta or else I violate my conscience. :)
I'll let iHs know about the ban when I talk with him. I'm going to be away for a bit as well today.
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/20/02 10:18:49 am
Re: Which is more loving?
yeah well bro, when one feels as passionate as we do about our beliefs insults will sometimes pop out, I sure know I'm not above them... God bless ya and as far as straight shooting goes... would never expect, or want anything else from ya!
ya turkey!!! lol
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 345
(4/20/02 10:58 am) Reply
Re: Which is more loving?
Hehe...
I'm turkey, but I got an oven to go with it for you...since I'm a Calvinist, its a "Dutch Oven" ... saftey ;P
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