MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 328
(4/20/02 8:31 am) Reply
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
I understand that it is your belief that all have a "chance" to be saved, but I just don't think that can be supported from the Bible or reason. How could those who were ignorantly worshipping what they thought were God(s), but were really devils; who were sacrificing their children; having homosexual temple orgies, etc. etc. how could they ever have a "chance" to be saved? The only way that I can see is to affirm a type of salvation by works, where if they did "good enough" for "the light they had" then they could be saved apart from the Work of Christ; I would stand firmly against such a view, and would hope that you would, too. So I don't know how everyone could have a "chance."
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
Monkee, bro them same people that Paul went to did these things... just like in Noahs day as well, he warned them for low over a 100 years, they had a chance they just rejected it.
Now whats to say God didn't place others around the globe to preach against evil and for those that do evil to turn from it, you yourself said the American Indians, some of them could have been saved without ever hearing the name of Christ... those are your won words... so why not the rest? I mean are you part Indian or something so thats why you say some of them could be saved but others couldn't?
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 330
(4/20/02 9:20 am) Reply
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
Duh. People who were warned obviously had a "chance."
"Now whats to say God didn't place others around the globe to preach against evil and for those that do evil to turn from it,..."
Yes, what's not to say that God had ancient Israelites here in the North America, who spoke ancient Egyptian, like the Mormons said. What's not to say that to say that God didn't really use extra-terrestrials seeding the earth to bring man about? You can conjecture anything you'd like; I personally am not going "beyond that which is written," (1 Cor. 4:6).
If you think God sent some special messangers to every nation during the OT, show it from His own Word. Is He didn't, then I don't see how all can be said to have a "chance."
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
Me: No, Adam knew direct intercourse, Abraham was the first Jew, with whom the covenant promise of a Redeemer was established, Moses was a prophet, called of God.
Who is to say God didn't do likewise to the others... the norsemen and such... either by out and out coming to them or by the spirit? He did it with others, you admit that... yes Moses was a prophet... BUT he knew God by Gods direct contact with Him...
You: I would not say He didn't do such, as you have seen from my answers earlier about Native Americans...
me: "The man in China, that died in say 40 ad and never heard the name of Christ... He lived a loving and respectful life... not harming anyone, and prayed to who he though was God... does he burn in hell? Yes or no?"
me: "If God didn't regenerate his heart to true faith, yes, he would be judged for his sin and condemned to hell."
You: "All the other people that never confessed Christ as their Lord... before the word was in their land... i.e. The American Indians here before 1472...
Is everyone of them burning in hell. Yes of no?"
you: "No. God could have applied the faith of Christ to their heart in regeneration, as He did with Old Testament saints, Hebrews 11 (esp. vss. 39-40), and so, saved some of them
(Your contradicting your self again buddy... you show there that He could save them... then say you can't see how. You might have jumped to other forums, but those are your posts)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 335
(4/20/02 9:47 am) Reply
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
Me: "As I've stated I'm asking about your beliefs. If you would like to know what I believe, feel free to start a new post or thread; and I've already stated elsewhere that I believe no all are given a "chance," some are left in darkness. As for your belief--that everyone is given a "chance"--If they have a "chance" please explain how."
It is now obviously from your grasping at straws attempt to imply that I am being inconsistant you have no answer for the question. Thank you.
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
No its not, I have answered... when they turn from darkness and to light... I have said that time and time again... and your stance is that they couldn't change their heart on their own... again then why would God save any of them...
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 339
(4/20/02 10:04 am) Reply
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
"How could those who were ignorantly worshipping what they thought were God(s), but were really devils; who were sacrificing their children; having homosexual temple orgies, etc. etc. how could they ever have a "chance" to be saved?"
If you answered that please do it again, right now, so I can see it.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without
There I posted it yet again... that clearly shows all know deep down... that there is a God and He is against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
He can come to them JUST like you said to the Indians and the others... that were not of Darkness... JUST like He went to Abraham and the others that didn't know Him before hand... God saw that over all Abraham was not of the darkness, so He instilled in His heart the will to do good... you yourself said God could do that to some of the Indians, that they all arent in hell, and infact said you wouldn't dare say he wouldn't... have you changed your mind?
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 346
(4/20/02 11:02 am) Reply
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
Well, I believe that God can effectually regenerate a heart and impute the faith of Christ to it, regardless of the external condition of the person; and I know you don't believe that, so I have a hard time following.
I understand why people are held accountable by Romans 1, but not how they could become "wise unto Salvation" by natural revelation...
Rom. 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Doesn't Paul say, nine chapter later, that they can't hear without a preacher and can't have a preacher unless one is sent?
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/20/02 11:09:33 am
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
Well, I believe that God can effectually regenerate a heart and impute the faith of Christ to it, regardless of the external condition of the person; and I know you don't believe that, so I have a hard time following.
(I believe He can... yes, but won't unless they really want to to shun evil, look at Paul, God came to Him because Paul wanted to serve the Lord was just going about it with His zeal and not the Lords, therefore God inputted in Him the new heart, the Old one was still after God, just not in the right way.)
I understand why people are held accountable by Romans 1, but not how they could become "wise unto Salvation" by natural revelation...
(Because once they know there was a God and glorify Him not, or want to turn from what they know is evil... they cannot... be "wise unto Salvation", thats the point, Jesus is going to heal anyone against their will... "lest I heal them" as far as before the coming of Christ, like God said I will write on the hearts my laws, and will call them my people that were not... once taken up though, no doubt they were given the full scope that they are saved by the blood of Christ... because to me all sin, Adams, Abrahams, Noahs, all mans sin must be covered by the blood of Christ.)
Doesn't Paul say, nine chapter later, that they can't hear without a preacher and can't have a preacher unless one is sent?
(yes but we were talking about those before Christ... like the Indians, those in china etc etc etc... so how could he have come to them if the word wasnt yet, yet you say they could be saved... and i submit that it is the same way God came to Abraham, Moses and so forth, in the spirit...)
Doesn't Paul say, nine chapter later, that they can't hear without a preacher and can't have a preacher unless one is sent?
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 365
(4/21/02 9:00 am) Reply
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
So people who worshipped devils and never heard of YHVH could be saved by doing good works ('turning from evil"). No need to respond to such silliness, you're welcome to it.
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
So then how do you say "some" of the Indians were saved... also... by your view... everyone before Moses and the law burns in hell today. If not then God could have used the same means to save them as Abraham.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 367
(4/21/02 9:40 am) Reply
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
Abraham, adam, Jacob, etc. all knew YHVH. you're welcome to your view that those who have never heard of YHVH have a chance to be saved by their good works. I am with Paul:
Gal. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
Abraham didn't Know God by any man telling him about God, Yet God came to Him why not some of the American Indians, etc etc etc... YOU already said it was possible!!!
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 371
(4/21/02 10:04 am) Reply
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
You're welcome to your "Two ways to salvation, works & grace" system. You can keep it. I want no part of it.
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
(Fine take no part in that.)
Amos 8:7 The LORD hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob, Surely I will never forget any of their works.
2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
1 Timothy 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
1 Timothy 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
1 Peter 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(Your freewill choice.)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 373
(4/21/02 10:40 am) Reply
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
Now you want to twist James' speech about justification before men into how to be justified before God and make him contrdict Paul...amazing...the lengths you go to in order to protect your traditions.
For those of you out there who know what a "timeline" is, you should be able to follow this:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"
Gen. 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Gen. 22:9-12 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Now 15 is over there on the left side of the timeline, isn't it? and 22 is over on the right....now what could that mean? Could that mean that James is talking about Abraham being show to be righteous before men in 22, and not justification before God, which is in 15?? And wouldn't that be harmonious with Paul? and with John who says that "faith works itself out in love"? Indeed.
Somebody please get Jehu a timeline so he can follow along with us. :)
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
Works without faith is dead monkeesage.... and you want no part of works... you have made that clear. And again... yea just have to get the digs in don't ya, can't just stick to the topic... pity.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 380
(4/21/02 11:10 am) Reply
Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
OK. So how could anyone (whose worship was demonic and who suppressed the truth in unrighteousness) have a "chance," apart from being told about the true God?
-J
S.D.G
KJChristianWarrior
ezOP
Posts: 340
(4/19/02 1:09:41 am)
Reply Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
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Now where bacl to rom 1:20 again... God says they know deep down what is good and evil, just chose to love the evil... and reject the good. A rapest knows deep down its wrong... but would rather rape then do right... therefore God keeps the truth from Him... 2thess 2:11-12...
MonkeeSage
Registered User
Posts: 289
(4/19/02 1:16:57 am)
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Yes, people know when they are doing evil, how does that give them a "chance" to believe in the true God?
-J
S.D.G
KJChristianWarrior
ezOP
Posts: 345
(4/19/02 1:51:28 am)
Reply Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
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because if they chose to turn from that evil... and wish to shun the darkness God will give them the light... Christ... who in turn testifies through the spirit "quickening" about God... to their hearts... but the initial want to turn from darkness is theirs... BUT in reality thats the second step because God tookt he first step by giving them the knowledge of good and evil.
MonkeeSage
Registered User
Posts: 294
(4/19/02 2:00:03 am)
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So the gentiles who worshipped devils could be saved as long as they worshipped devils in a way that wanted to turn from evil?
-J
S.D.G
KJChristianWarrior
ezOP
Posts: 348
(4/19/02 1:08:04 pm)
Reply Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
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If your worshipping devils... you don't want to turn from darkness... once they stopped... as you said, even the indians of the west, some of them could have been saved...
MonkeeSage
Registered User
Posts: 303
(4/19/02 10:49:00 pm)
Reply | Edit Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
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Nope:
1 Cor. 10:19-20 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
The idols that the Gentiles worshipped were devils. How did they have a "chance"? Answer; they didn't. Sorry. They just didn't. Not unless you are willing to admit that God doesn't need man's help to save and can regenerate a heart and apply the faith of Christ, apart from anything done by humans...which of course you are not. So, they had no chance.
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/19/02 10:58:06 pm
KJChristianWarrior
ezOP
Posts: 353
(4/20/02 1:27:55 am)
Reply Re: Everyone deserves a chance!
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Oh please MonkeeSage you just proved my point MOST of Pauls coverts worshipped devils before he came to them... same with the others... and you said the American Indians could have been saved if Christ regenerated their heart... and that was before 1400's before the gospel had reached the new lands... but the others God couldn't have done that to huh?
How's that work?
MonkeeSage
Registered User
Posts: 309
(4/20/02 2:20:32 am)
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Don't see anyhting about "most" in there. I see "eqnh"--"Gentiles." Gentiles worshipped devils, all the idols of the Gentile nations, were nothing but facemasks for devils. Paul says nothing about knowingly worshipping, he says the idols they worship. No Gentiles ever thought that their idols were evil devils, they thought they were Janus, or Ashtoreth, or Diana of the Ephesians, not devils. Paul says they were really devils.
As I've stated I'm asking about your beliefs. If you would like to know what I believe, feel free to start a new post or thread; and I've already stated elsewhere that I believe no all are given a "chance," some are left in darkness. As for your belief--that everyone is given a "chance"--If they have a "chance" please explain how.
How did a Ammonite (Deu. 23:3-4) in the third generation have a "chance"?
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/20/02 5:07:10 am
KJChristianWarrior
ezOP
Posts: 357
(4/20/02 5:41:14 am)
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Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Monkeesage you write: Don't see anyhting about "most" in there. I see "ethnh"--"Gentiles." Gentiles worshipped devils, all the idols of the Gentile nations, were nothing but facemasks for devils.
Before you said Gentiles meant Christians, now it means devil worshippers... your getting crossed again. BUT Okay so Gentiles means devil worshippers...
Luke 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Galations 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Ephessians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
(So then the gentiles are not Christ like you say now, though before it meant Christian... I can dig up the statement ya made saying that if ya like... so now gentiles means devil worshippers... okay... well they can be saved as well.)
Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
(Right there shows we have a choice in the matter...)
Luke 12:4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
(Again, why should the election fear Him, we can't go to hell, and true to why do those bound to hell need to fear Him, they are not the election and cannot be saved so who is this warning to?)
How did a Ammonite (Deu. 23:3-4) in the third generation have a "chance"?
There is a Hebrew rite of Passage, somewhere in the first five books, were they perform a cermony to become of the "12 tribes" once this is taken... they are no longer of there people or land but become Gods is how...
MonkeeSage
Registered User
Posts: 315
(4/20/02 5:46:18 am)
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How did Gentiles have a chance before they heard of Christ (which was the whole point of my question)?
How did people who never heard of the ceremony or of the 12 tribes or of YHVH, have a chance?
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/20/02 5:47:05 am
MonkeeSage
Registered User
Posts: 316
(4/20/02 5:50:02 am)
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Example: God could have made it so that the Gospel was legal in China 500 years ago (by forknowing which rulers would make which decisison, etc. etc.), but has not chosen to make it so.
How have those Chinese people, for the past 500 years, had a "chance"?
-J
S.D.G
KJChristianWarrior
ezOP
Posts: 359
(4/20/02 6:11:59 am)
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No your the one that said gentiles means Christians now your switching it up ans saying they can't be saved because they worshipped devils...
MonkeeSage
Registered User
Posts: 317
(4/20/02 6:18:35 am)
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Could be, but how does everyone have a "chance"?
-J
S.D.G
KJChristianWarrior
ezOP
Posts: 362
(4/20/02 6:41:03 am)
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Could be, but how does everyone have a "chance"?
Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
Mathew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
ALSO look... He even wanted the worse whoredom lady of them all to repent... this blows Calvinism away too, for He even wanted her, the one Jehu took out, the worse women in the bible... to be saved.
Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
(She could have repented, and turned to the Lord.)
Mathew 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
(Again clearly they had the free will to be saved.)
MonkeeSage
Registered User
Posts: 321
(4/20/02 6:45:11 am)
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How has every single person who has ever existed had a "chance" to be saved, specifically, those who have never heard of YHVH?
KJChristianWarrior
ezOP
Posts: 368
(4/20/02 8:07:23 am)
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Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
We done been over this... same way He did Abraham, Adam, etc etc etc... by writing His laws on the hearts... and why would He do that? Because they turned from the darkness... by the way Abraham wasn't a jew...
MonkeeSage
Registered User
Posts: 327
(4/20/02 8:09:30 am)
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How has every single person who has ever existed had a "chance" to be saved, specifically, those who have never heard of YHVH?
-J
S.D.G
Seems clear who was running away from the issue, especially considering is has taken about 40 posts and the question still hasn't been answered (as with other threads on this board).
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