you asked me in the bible to show you were free will was in a latter post... as if it wasn't in there... now your switching it up again to... oh well it was thought up in the 16th cent. But before you said show me where it says freewill in the bible... as if it wasn't there... well it was so now ya switch up on it...
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
You even got the origin of the date wrong... the words free will were not from the 16th century like you said... but the 13TH that's a 300 year mistake there bro and note what it says CHOICE
Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
Now did God divinely make them burn in hell or not?
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 229
(4/17/02 3:05 pm) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
The words obviously existed before then, and if the meaning given them is"
1 : voluntary choice or decision [I do this of my own free will]
Then I have no qualm with them. That is not, however, what you mean by them. You mean the ability to do good or evil, which is a totally separate issue and why I object to concept of "free will" that includes the ability to do good or evil (which arose with the humanists in the 16th century, e.g., in Erasmus' "Freedom of the Will").
Which is exactly what I quoted from Calvin.
"In this way, then, man is said to have "free will"...because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion. This is perfectly true: but why should so small a matter have been dignified with so proud a title? An admirable freedom! that man is not forced to be the servant of sin, while he is, however, ethelodouloV (a voluntary slave); his will being bound by the fetters of sin. I abominate mere verbal disputes, by which the Church is harassed to no purpose; but I think we ought religiously to eschew terms which imply some absurdity, especially in subjects where error is of pernicious consequence. How few are there who, when they hear "free will" attributed to man, do not immediately imagine that he is the master of his mind and will in such a sense, that he can of himself incline himself either to good or evil? It may be said that such dangers are removed by carefully expounding the meaning to the people. But such is the proneness of the human mind to go astray, that it will more quickly draw error from one little word, than truth from a lengthened discourse. Of this, the very term in question furnishes too strong a proof. For the explanation given by ancient Christian writers having been lost sight of, almost all who have come after them, by attending only to the etymology of the term, have been led to indulge a fatal confidence..." (John Calvin; Institutes of the Christian Religion [Eerdmans: 1998], II.iia.7, pp. 228)
Did God make who burn in hell?? and what do you mean by the adjective "divinely"? Are you asking if God forced someone to go to hell against their will? Please clarify.
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
The words obviously existed before then, and if the meaning given them is"
1 : voluntary choice or decision [I do this of my own free will]
Then I have no qualm with them. That is not, however, what you mean by them. You mean the ability to do good or evil, which is a totally separate issue and why I object to concept of "free will" that includes the ability to do good or evil
No thats just what I meant... see I proved ya wrong yet again so now your going to even try to switch up my meaning... lol I meant just what I said, they have the free will to reject God or love God... they use their free will to stay in sin, God doesn't want them in that sin, and they can get out, BUT because they don't want to "free will again" they chose to stay in the sin, therefore God won't let them confess the name of Christ and be healed... BUT its their initial free will choice to stay in that sin... I have said the same thing over and over... God wishes that none perish... none... now that can't be the election, because they can't perish by your view, they are bound for heaven no matter what... so who doesn't God want to perish... anyone that perishes... and that's the lost... why does He let them perish... because its of their won free will to stay in sin... they had a chance just like you did, and me
>>>> Did God make who burn in hell?? and what do you mean by the adjective "divinely"? Are you asking if God forced someone to go to hell against their will? Please clarify.
(MonkeeSage look at the definement of the words free will, which you said you agree with.)
Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
(Now note #2... freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention... now IF they go to hell, by that #2, either God divinely made them go to hell, and that would mean they had no choice in the matter, OR they had a choice in the matter and their free will chose to stay in sin... its not that they couldn't be the election, they turned it down
kwluete Registered User
Posts: 1
(4/17/02 4:03 pm) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
Me: "You mean the ability to do good or evil"
You: "No thats just what I meant... they have the free will to reject God or love God... they use their free will to stay in sin"
If those mean two different things then I don't have a deep enough grasp on the English language to see it.
You: "IF they go to hell, by that #2, either God divinely made them go to hell, and that would mean they had no choice in the matter, OR they had a choice in the matter and their free will chose to stay in sin... "
False Dichotomy, people don't have to have your definition of "free-will" (FW) which is "the ability to do good or evil" to make accountable choices. They only have to have desires, reasoning and a will; choices naturally follow.
-J
S.D.G
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 232
(4/17/02 4:05 pm) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
^^ Sorry about that, my browser had a cookie from another nick I have and it logged me in as that automatically. That is from me.
Now back to the debate... ITS still thier choice and free will to pick to either do good or evil... they have a choice... repent and do the will of God... or their will... thats a free choice and picking one or the other is using your free will... It clearly shows the wicked can change...
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
AND many many many more... which some you have seen but you dont like me to use the bible for some reason?
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 235
(4/17/02 4:51 pm) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
Yes they have a free choice to choose God or not. And they always choose not to unless God gives them a new heart.
The Ezekiel passage tells us that God isn't happy when the wicked die.
It says nothing about fallen man having the ability to turn to God.
If you want passages that talk about the ability of fallen man:
Romans 8:5-8 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
John 6:44, 65 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. ... And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
The Ezekiel passage tells us that God isn't happy when the wicked die.
It says nothing about fallen man having the ability to turn to God.
(It doesnt huh?)
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Joel 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Mathew 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
(Showing they could have but chose not to... just like one of the two sons... first he said no... the repented... thats why he teaches it... but i'm sure that doesn't mean what it says too.)
Mathew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
ALL showing they can turn to God if they change their ways
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 243
(4/17/02 5:59 pm) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
No, the passage in Ezekiel doesn't.
Do you believe all those Scriptures contradict John 6:44, 65 and Romans 8:5-8? I would hope not. So let's deal with those texts after we determine what John 6:44, 65 and Romans 8:5-8 mean.
Would it be your assertion that they [John 6:44, 65 and Romans 8:5-8] do not teach that fallen man is completely unable to come to Christ apart from an effectual act of God the Father?
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
(No not that one... to me its saying, no man can recieve Christ unless Father draws them... and He draws them by knowing their heart... and if their heart is turned to the Father, He will draw them to Christ.)
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
(Right here shows it... as does many other places...)
Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Again not at all, he is just making the distinction between those of the world and of Christ... that's not to say those of the flesh can't cast of the flesh by coming to Christ... we were of the flesh before we were quickened in the Spirit.)
Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
(That one even shows YOU can have effect on the matter.)
Ephessians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
(Just one of many verses that show we were in the flesh at one time too. So if we were in the flesh and saved... so can the others... God is a Just God.)
Ephessians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(Again and many others show we too were of the flesh... just like them.)
So it is a act God to let them see the truth in Christ yes... just like to us... but the initial repentances of their heart "turn to me with your heart.." is the cause Father requires to let them see Christ... its then that they can start walking in the spirit, and doing those things of Gods will, and not their own...
Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
(Clearly showing they can change from flesh to servants to righteousness.)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 251
(4/18/02 4:09 pm) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
"(No not that one... to me its saying, no man can recieve Christ unless Father draws them... and He draws them by knowing their heart... and if their heart is turned to the Father, He will draw them to Christ.)"
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
Mathew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
(Same thing... a calling to repent... then Father will show them the truths of Christ.)
Mathew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
(look who He is talking about. The wise and prudent)
1 Corinitains 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
(Showing a change can take place.)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 259
(4/18/02 4:40 pm) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
"...and He draws them by knowing their heart... and if their heart is turned to the Father, He will draw them to Christ."
Matt. 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
So God doesn't really draw anyone since they can't come to the Son until they are drawn; and can't be drawn until they know the Father and turn their heart to Him; and can't know the Father or turn their heart to Him until they come to the Son?
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
Man you type fast... or your on DLS and these windows just pop up faster>?
So God doesn't really draw anyone since they can't come to the Son until they are drawn; and can't be drawn until they know the Father and turn their heart to Him; and can't know the Father or turn their heart to Him until they come to the Son?
(No. There has to be a change in their heart, a desiring in their heart to want to do good, to turn from evil, and seek goodness... before Father will send them to Christ. Right now, because they love darkness rather then light... Father will not show them Christ... )
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 261
(4/18/02 4:54 pm) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
Matt. 11:27 says that none know the Father unless the Son reveals Him to them, John 6:44 says that none come to the Son unless the Father draws them; if "drawing" is based on knowing the Father or trusting the Father, then it cannot ever take place.
On this view one must come to the Son first (which they can't do) to have any knowledge of the Father; then must be drawn by the Father to come to the Son: the drawing depends on the coming, and the coming depends on the drawing.
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
No the way I see it is one must first stop the "and for this cause" talked of in 2thess 2:11-12... what ever evil they are doing that makes Father look away from them and their soul... once they stop this because they want to not do evil... "still not believing in God" Then... Father shows them Christ and his love and testament of Father...
so to me it seems its... repent of the evil... Father gives you to Christ... and inturn Christ shows them the truth that is Father by His Spirit quickening theirs... "To make alive," to the knowledge of God.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 265
(4/18/02 5:10 pm) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
So who is drawn by the Father?
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
Everyone... saved and unsaved... to a degree are, as rom 1:20 suggests... they are drawn to not love the darkness more then the light... again... if they want to truly turn their heart to goodness, and wish to cast off the evil... that is why they are without excuse... because deep down they know what they do is evil... and wish not to stop it...
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