MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 269
(4/18/02 7:58 pm) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
John 6:44 says that the one drawn by the Father is "raised up at the last day" and v. 45 says that everyone who is taught and learns from the Father, comes to the Son.
How could the Father draw/teach every individual if not all come/are raised up to eternal life?
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
"raised up at the last day" Is talking of the Day of the Lord... Judgement day... all men that willing want Father have already been drawn before the last day.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 275
(4/18/02 9:40 pm) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
Really? So when Jesus says, in v. 37-39 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." Is he talking about the final judgment? Doesn't sound like it to me. What do you think?
Also, what does it mean in v. 45, that all that have learned from the Father come to Jesus, isn't that eternal life, and not final judgment?
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
(Their asking him for a sign.)
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
(He tells them, He is the sign, and more then just a sign, life.)
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
(And invite to all, I think this because... if we're made to believe in him from before time, then thats not a belief... we didn't come to a decision on our own, it takes away the believe part, and inserts a programmed soul.)
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
(Showing that some will come to the decision "belief" that Jesus is a lair. This brings us back to 2thess 2:11-12... there is a cause that they do, that keeps them blind to God. Which brings us to romans 1:20 again and others, that say they know deep down... just want to stay in the sin, rather then submit... )
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
(Showing that Jesus won't cast out any that come to Him, this does not mean, nor say at a later date, that that person can not part with Christ of his own free will, mainly done by losing faith because of diving back into the sins of the flesh, lack of prayer and study, etc etc etc. "as I read the bible, we can fall from salvation.")
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
(Showing Christ had free will, hence the devil tempting him, and offering Him riches if He but bowed and worshipped satan. Note satan waited till He was weary in the flesh... he didn't start out on Christ right away, but waited.)
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
(Showing that he was given a task, to build the church, and Satan will not prevail against the church as a whole.)
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Showing that that those that do believe on Him may in the end have everlasting life... come the last day.)
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
(Remember who He is talking to, the Israel "contender with God"... and more to the point the ones of Jacob that don't believe... and this ties into romans.)
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the he Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Isaiah 54:13 Jeremiah 31:31-34 Hebrews 8:11 and here is the old test scripts of where Jesus was talking about others saying it before him.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 276
(4/18/02 11:50 pm) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
V. 37 The giving of the Father is before the coming, it is the reason for the coming. "Coming" means "believing." All who are given come (believe). Why do they come? Because they are given. Can they come otherwise? v. 44 No, they cannot.
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
(You tell me.)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 279
(4/19/02 12:19 am) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
Ok. No, He does not, because all that He draws come to Him and are raised up to Spiritual life. John 12 is talking about all types of men (Jew & Gentiles) as the context makes plain (v. 20-21).
There is just no way to make John 6 fit your notion of "free will" (i.e., ability to do good or evil by an autonomous act of will), or the idea that God wants to save every individual.
John 6:35-66 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not.
For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/19/02 12:22:21 am
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Alone shows some can recieve Christ and then reject him... and I disagree with your evaluation. Sorry.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 284
(4/19/02 12:40 am) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
No, that alone shows that some reject christ, nothing about accepting, and if you look up one verse before Jesus just said that none are able to accept unless it is given to them by the Father. And you'll notice that had Jesus wanted to woo them, He wouldn't have continued to press the point; even after they murmered among themselves, Him having known in advance that if He kept on they would leave (v. 64), He continues to preach the exact same thing that caused them trouble.
There is no other way to understand Jesus, if so, how?
The giving is an act by the Father, it is necessary to the coming, and all who are given (drawn) are not lost, but are raised up the last day because they actually do believe--the giving is effectual, the coming is sure, no can come without the giving, not all are given.
-J
S.D.G
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 287
(4/19/02 12:50 am) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
John 10:24-30 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/19/02 12:52:47 am
neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.
(That doesnt say you can't turn from God yourself though... He even talks about one losing a sheep and going to seek for it. Which He does... and it is not a easy thing to fall from the grace of God. I agree. But by the reading of the word one can leave the faith.)
1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 292
(4/19/02 1:37 am) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
"(That doesnt say you can't turn from God yourself though... He even talks about one losing a sheep and going to seek for it. Which He does... and it is not a easy thing to fall from the grace of God. I agree. But by the reading of the word one can leave the faith.)"
You have to invalidate Jesus' words to believe that. Jesus said:
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
He is perfectly able to do the Father's will and lose none that He has been given.
Isaiah 53:6-11 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Also, Jesus told the Jewish leaders "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep..."
He didn't say "But ye are not of my sheep, because ye believe not..."
They didn't believe because they were not of His sheep, that was the cause of their not believing, and unless they were given by the Father as Jesus' sheep, they would never believe.
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/19/02 1:42:57 am
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
yes I agree with that, but they are not His sheep because of "for this cause" its not that they can't be His sheep they don't want to be His sheep because they what to keep "for this cause."
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 295
(4/19/02 2:06 am) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
"they don't want to be His sheep"
Not what the verse says, they didn't believe ("want to believe") because--oti, instrumental use, showing the cause--they were not of His sheep; as He said in chapter 6, that they were unable to come to Him unless given by the Father.
The heart is darkened my friend, and it is a slave to sin, and only if the Son makes it free will it be truly free.
Joh 8:30-45 As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father.
Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father.
Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/19/02 2:09:35 am
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
The heart is darkened my friend, and it is a slave to sin, and only if the Son makes it free will it be truly free.
(our heart was dark too minkeesage, yet we got saved... they "could" to if they wanted to.)
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
(That don't mean they cannot be broken of the bondage of the devil... and turn from him, hence all the warnings to do so.)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 304
(4/19/02 10:53 pm) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
"(our heart was dark too minkeesage, yet we got saved... they "could" to if they wanted to.)"
Nope. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. ... no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." None can ever want to come unless the Father draws and gives them to the Son, and if He does, they will come. You are denying Scripture.
"(That don't mean they cannot be broken of the bondage of the devil... and turn from him, hence all the warnings to do so.)"
Nope. That's exactly what it means "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." In fact what did Jesus say, just a few verses before?
Jesus: "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
Jehu: "You're not really a slave, don't listen! Just free yourself and you will be free indeed!"
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
No I'm not, nor am I not saying that doesn't say what it says, your saying they cannot have turned no matter what, they had no choice in the matter... they NEVER could have been saved... God made them to send them to hell to show His power and might... His justice... as you see... the way I understand it?
I am saying, and the bible says, we were just like them, and they have just as much chance at salvation as we did, but chose in their heart to love darkness, therefore God will not draw them... He gives them enough to know there is a God and good and evil... and that they have picked evil... rom chap 1 and 2thess amoung other places... and there is a call for them to repent, for every man to repent monkeesage means just that... GOD wouldn't tell them to do somehting He know they couldn't do... and they can, they just don't want to. Don't try to muddle it up, get off track, or tell me what I mean or meant... God would that no man perish... but gives them free will to reject Him if they so choice.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 308
(4/20/02 2:13 am) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
"...they had no choice in the matter..."
No, I'm saying what the Bible says, none will ever make the choice to turn to God unless God does an effectual work in their heart called "drawing."
"God made them to send them to hell to show His power and might"
Yes, God created people, knowing they would always choose to reject Him, and allows them to do so, to display his justice.
"I am saying, and the bible says, we were just like them,..."
Yes, we were just like them, slaves to sin. Unless God changes our heart.
Eph. 2:1-10 And you [did he make alive], when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:
--but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
"GOD wouldn't tell them to do somehting He know they couldn't do"
You'll never find that taught in the Bible. God tells every man to be perfect, as the Father is perfect (Matt. 5:48). There's goes your theory.
Romans 1 says nothing about the ability to do good or evil, it says that everyone does do evil, though they know better, and because of that God darkens their foolish hearts.
2 Thess. 2 says:
"And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (vss. 11-12).
For what cause? "that they should believe a lie." Why would God want them to believe the lie? "that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
"But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: whereunto he called you through our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (vss. 13-14).
And what makes any person different from thse who "believe a lie"? "that God chose [them] from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: whereunto he called [them] through our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(No you try to change that... )
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
(And that.)
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
(And that.)
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
(And that.)
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(And that.)
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
(Even Romans 1:20 says they all know... and without excuse.)
Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
(There would be no joy in heaven... why, they as the election couldn't help but not repent.)
All these and many many more show they had a choice in the matter, but loved darkness rather then light...
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 318
(4/20/02 6:19 am) Reply
Re: Did Jesus Taste Death for everyone?
Ahh so you believe those Scriptures contradict John 6:44-45, 65 and Romans 8:5-8, is that what you are saying?
No one denys that everyone has a choice. That isn't the issue, the issue is what choice they will make and why, John 6:44-45, 65 and Rom. 8:5-8, are clear; but you insist that all have the ability to choose to do good, of their own natural will and nature, so you must believe that those Scripture are wrong.
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/20/02 6:22:36 am
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