But that is exactly what they will say about the texts you use... this is why I choice to stand on the word of God... as was given to me, with pray and study... you seem to fault me at that... ?
(That is a question?)
Secondly, you didn't ask a question, or else I missed it; all I saw was a long bluster about how I am (suposedly) saying that God didn't get His Word to English speakers and how we can't give people KJVs (?!??), etc. and that without any documentation or warrant (and thus making it a bluster).
(O no MonkeeSage... so then people should read the kjv and take it for what it says and for face value... make up your mind... ? You have tried to take atleast 50 verses or more and try to say they don't mean what they say at face value... heck more then that if you want to talk abuot judgment... and MonkeeSage JUST what are the doomed going to be judged on... that they were made by God to be sinful men and they where to die in their sin and their is nothing they could do abuot it... lol limited atonement even takes away from the judgment day! The out come is the same... their is nothing they could have done but sin... so what is the reason to be judged... and the JW's like you believe that only a select few are saved and that there is nothing anyone... there only take is that because your notof the Kingdom Hall you burn in hell... and they like others... add to the words of the bible... yet Christ said become as a child... some people are out there trying to bring all men to Christ... others are trying to keep some men from Christ as I see it... "they hold the keys, but wont go in... nor let others..." Jesus came unto "his own" and they recieved him not... shows that he came to some that where meant to be his... but they rejected him... but that don't mean what it says... sooooo my preaching... should be... NOT all of you are saved... there is no bible you can read to understand the word of God... and judgment day matters not on if your the election or doomed... God either made you to be in heaven or hell and there is nothing you can do about it, if you keep sticking that needle in your arm matters not on your salvation... and last but not least... I DON'T HAVE A DOCTRINE... other then the bible... Nor did Christ.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 188
(4/16/02 6:15 am) Reply
Re: I understand
I wouldn't fault anyone for standing on the Word of God. I would fault claiming a particular interpretation is the Word if it doesn't fit the analogy of faith (Isa. 28:10, 13).
>>"so then people should read the kjv and take it for what it says and for face value... make up your mind... ?"
No, people should understand the Bible in any translation, by the Bible; which I have stated elsewhere: "interpreting the bible by the Bible is the only valid hermeneutic."
>>"You have tried to take atleast 50 verses or more and try to say they don't mean what they say at face value..."
I've interpreted the bible by the Bible. Nothing to fault me for.
>>"JUST what are the doomed going to be judged on..."
As I've stated elsewhere, time and again, people will only be held accountable for sin.
>>"that they were made by God to be sinful men and they where to die in their sin and their is nothing they could do abuot it..."
Proper statement: "that they were allowed by God to be sinful men and to die in their sin, so that there is nothing they would ever want to do about it, because they love darkness more than light..."
You didn't give any sources for what I believe, so your comparison to JW is irrelevant. I can make up a bunch of stuff and pretend that you believe it, then fault you for it, but that isn't very fair. If my doctrine matches JW, please __document__ it.
>>"I DON'T HAVE A DOCTRINE... other then the bible..."
Interesting, neither did the Pharisees, according to them. In passing, I note that if Jesus didn't have a doctrine, it is sure funny that He would claim He did in John 7:16, but then again...what would a Calvinist know about Scripture? after-all Calvinists just twist it and change it and can't accept the "face value" reading...
Since you have no doctrine, please show me the verse that says, in these words, "Christ died for _____ (your name)."
Also, show me the verse that says "You choose to be elect or not to be by free will,"
or
show me one place in the Bible where it says "all humans have free will."
Since those aren't actually doctrines that you hold, and they are the Bible itself, exactly like that; I wait with bated breath.
Re: I understand
No, people should understand the Bible in any translation, by the Bible; which I have stated elsewhere: "interpreting the bible by the Bible is the only valid hermeneutic."
(monkeesage... thats just what your not doing... I can bring up atleast 30 quotes where you have man say what the bible means instead of the bible... )
No, people should understand the Bible in any translation, by the Bible; which I have stated elsewhere: "interpreting the bible by the Bible is the only valid hermeneutic."
(Thats just what they are doing... and why 85% of Christians don't agree with Calvinism... they say you interpret... you say they and I do.)
>>"JUST what are the doomed going to be judged on..."
As I've stated elsewhere, time and again, people will only be held accountable for sin.
(Avoid it then MonkeeSage... there judge for sin they had no choice to comment and there is nothing they could do about it... something doesn't wash here either... how is that judgement by the way...? You where made to sin and there was nothing you could do about it, and no way out of hell... so i judge you worthy of hell!!! lol please.)
>>"that they were made by God to be sinful men and they where to die in their sin and their is nothing they could do abuot it..."
Proper statement: "that they were allowed by God to be sinful men and to die in their sin, so that there is nothing they would ever want to do about it, because they love darkness more than light..."
(SIDESKIPPING again... they don't have a choice BUT to love darkness...)
Interesting, neither did the Pharisees, according to them. In passing, I note that if Jesus didn't have a doctrine, it is sure funny that He would claim He did in John 7:16, but then again...what would a Calvinist know about Scripture? after-all Calvinists just twist it and change it and can't accept the "face value" reading...
(Pharisees now you liken me to them... hidden insults are just that... insults... and you try to bring in this "Calvinist" issues when all of them don't beleive as you do anyway... and you bet I don't heed to mans doctrines...)
Hebrews 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Ephessians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
Isaiah 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
1 Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
(Not calvin, gill, darby or anyone elses gospel have I learned... and you find me at fault for that it would seem... hey, I just thought of something... perhaps your not the election, how can you be so sure about that?)
1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
(Guess because he didn't have Calvin he is doomed as well? Have to run, will get to the rest of your post in a bit bro... and hey try not to get so testy... lol these are just questions...)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 192
(4/16/02 7:30 am) Reply
Re: I understand
>>"(monkeesage... thats just what your not doing... I can bring up atleast 30 quotes where you have man say what the bible means instead of the bible... )"
No, you cannot. I will attempt to understand what the Bible is actually saying and not take it according to my fancy and call it "face value."
Am I to understand that you believe the Bible contradicts itself when it says God loves the "world" (John 3:16, your interpretation of "world") and yet hates some people who are in it (Psa. 5:5), or refuses to pray for it (John 17:9), etc.?
>>"(Thats just what they are doing... and why 85% of Christians don't agree with Calvinism... they say you interpret... you say they and I do.)"
They claim that they take the "face value" reading and ignore any other consideration, calling it an attempt to "change" the Word (and by their "face value" reading they make the Bible contradict itself, which leads to my last question, above).
There go your numbers again. "...let God be true though every man is a liar..." (Rom. 3:4). Numbers mean diddly.
Aren't you aware that there is a time when men will not endure sound doctrine and will pile up their teachers, who will tickle their itching ears?
>>"(Avoid it then MonkeeSage... there judge for sin they had no choice to comment and there is nothing they could do about it..."
No, they chose to sin and "loved darkness more than light" that is the condemnation (John 3:19).
>>"something doesn't wash here either... how is that judgement by the way...? You where made to sin and there was nothing you could do about it, and no way out of hell... so i judge you worthy of hell!!! lol please.)"
Document where myself or any Calvinist have ever said that God makes (causes) people to sin.
>>"(SIDESKIPPING again... they don't have a choice BUT to love darkness...)"
That may be what you believe, but not me. And just because I don't believe that, about God causing people to sin, doesn't mean I'm sidestepping. As I've said, I believe Jesus when He said that "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." People have to "choose you this day who you will serve" and they always choose evil because they are evil by nature, they make the choices they do because they desire the results, and they desire those results because it is agreeable to their nature. Thus, evil natured people, want to do and choose evil for the pleasure that comes from it; regenerated people want to do and choose good for the pleasure that comes from it. They both make real, accountable choices.
>>"(Pharisees now you liken me to them... hidden insults are just that... insults... "
Look at the Targums, the Pharisees claimed that the Korban rule was a divinely given tradition handed down from Moses himself, not a "doctrine of man," but they were deluded, because Jesus told them they were making void the Law by that tradition.
>>"(Not calvin, gill, darby or anyone elses gospel have I learned... and you find me at fault for that it would seem... hey, I just thought of something... perhaps your not the election, how can you be so sure about that?)"
Aside from your cavil about Calvin or Gill--as if I follow them __instead__ of the Word--I will answer your question. I know I am elect of God because I have the faith of Christ, the desire to love Him and to keep His commandments, and by the testimony of the Holy Spirit; that being how John says I can know (1 John 5:10-13; 3:19-24). [Note: Darby was a Dispentensationalist Arminian (Plymouth Brethren)...not Reformed.]
>>"1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
(Guess because he didn't have Calvin he is doomed as well? Have to run, will get to the rest of your post in a bit bro... and hey try not to get so testy... lol these are just questions...)"
1 Tim. 4:16 says exactly what Eze. 33:8-9 says:
When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
I have no clue what that has to do with Calvin, though.
An interesting note about the verse is that it uses the exact same form of the word "save" (Grk. swseiV) as the Septuagint at Psalm 36:5-6 (6-7), which we saw earlier, and would seem to be a strong indicator that the "salvation" (swthr) of v. 10 and "save" of this passage are in the sense of preservation--"Giver of life, and all good things," in v. 10, and "preserve from" error, here.
P.S. Are you going to show me where Scripture says that you, by name, are saved, or where it says that all men have free will? I am not asking for Scriptures you interpret that way, interpretation is how we form "doctrines"; you claim you have no doctrine, only the Bible, so I want specific wording.
Re: I understand
Man you are a tuff nut to crack monkeesage... everytime I bring a scripture to you you say... well that really doesn't mean what it says... then say were to study the word and use scripture for our doctrine and then use other peoples doctrine to prove a point instead of scripture...
>>"(monkeesage... thats just what your not doing... I can bring up atleast 30 quotes where you have man say what the bible means instead of the bible... )"
No, you cannot. I will attempt to understand what the Bible is actually saying and not take it according to my fancy and call it "face value."
(As i see it yes thats just what you do bro... sorry... but to me thats just what your dfoing... second are you saying i can't show you 30 posted you have made on this board from other sources then the bible? It might not be 30 but will be dang close. )
Am I to understand that you believe the Bible contradicts itself when it says God loves the "world" (John 3:16, your interpretation of "world") and yet hates some people who are in it (Psa. 5:5), or refuses to pray for it (John 17:9), etc.?
Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
(That does not mean he hates the world... but thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Now if you need a book or calvin to tell you that John 3:16 means God so loved the WORLD... as a whole... but hates the actions of some men... like in psa 5:5 then maybe you do. By your terms God should love sin anyway... he created it, and made no way for some of them to cover it... again... by your view. Second if you pig out on grandma's cherry pie, ya had the munches and ya really loved it, then came to the bottom it a it was bit burnt... ya would still have loved the pie as a whole... if you can't get that by face value from the word of God then yes... you do need some to teach ya,... God is LOVE... and he would that no whicked die, but that they would turn to Him... i believe are the words... but oh yea... you say they can't, try spending some time on the streets and in the jails and prisons... see if the whicked, and I mean truly whicked... can't turn to Father and the love of Christ.)
They claim that they take the "face value" reading and ignore any other consideration, calling it an attempt to "change" the Word (and by their "face value" reading they make the Bible contradict itself, which leads to my last question, above)
(Well now where just getting into they claim and you claim stuff again bro... but hey thats what they say about you... you make the bible contradict itself... "Hey kinda like its bounces off of them and sticks to you... lol...")
Aren't you aware that there is a time when men will not endure sound doctrine and will pile up their teachers, who will tickle their itching ears?
(Your the one that seems to think ya need a teacher to teach you the word... not me, i been doing fine for myself with prayer... and studying the word... )
>>"something doesn't wash here either... how is that judgement by the way...? You where made to sin and there was nothing you could do about it, and no way out of hell... so i judge you worthy of hell!!! lol please.)"
Document where myself or any Calvinist have ever said that God makes (causes) people to sin.
(The outcome is the same... He made them... and He gave them no way to wash the sin... are you saying that Father made man and didn't know he would sin? Of course not, so then before He even made man He knew they would sin... and He would give them no way to clean the sin, so then judges them of what>? The sin they do, that he knew they would do before he created them... and so judges them to burn in hell everlasting... )
No, they chose to sin and "loved darkness more than light" that is the condemnation (John 3:19).
(They had not choice BUT to love darkness by your view... they can't repent or recieve the love of Christ... they never could. To me it seems your side steppin again bro... lets get down to the nitty gritty of this... and be honest about things... your view is they had no choice but to love darkness and God gave them no way out, and judges them for it... isn't that the case here monkee? I'm not trying to be rude or insult... by saying your sidestepping bro... just seems you don't want to fess up to this point of your doctrine...)
{>>"(SIDESKIPPING again... they don't have a choice BUT to love darkness...)"
[That may be what you believe, but not me. And just because I don't believe that, about God causing people to sin, doesn't mean I'm sidestepping. As I've said, I believe Jesus when He said that "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." People have to "choose you this day who you will serve" and they always choose evil because they are evil by nature, they make the choices they do because they desire the results, and they desire those results because it is agreeable to their nature. Thus, evil natured people, want to do and choose evil for the pleasure that comes from it; regenerated people want to do and choose good for the pleasure that comes from it. They both make real, accountable choices.]}
(Oh I see so then they could have repented and changed, and been the election... they just choice not to... and God foreknew this... Jesus did come to pay for their sin, and wants them to be in heaven... they just love the darkness of their own, they could love the light... but their free will is not to... MonkeeSage... we got a problem here because thats what I been saying all along.)
P.S. Are you going to show me where Scripture says that you, by name, are saved, or where it says that all men have free will? I am not asking for Scriptures you interpret that way, interpretation is how we form "doctrines"; you claim you have no doctrine, only the Bible, so I want specific wording.
(I never said my name was written in the bible... its not, its written in heaven... your trying to build a strawman again bro... post where i said my name was written in the bible? Don't post anything else dude, just like ya told me not to... lol two can play this game.)
Psalms 119:108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.
Leviticus 22:23 Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.
Leviticus 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;
Ezra 3:5 And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.
Leviticus 22:29 And when ye will offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving unto the LORD, offer it at your own will.
1 Corinitains 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
1 Peter 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: (remember you said gentiles means Christians. Though I disagree... taint' us he is calling gentiles there... anyway my good friend... if you can't get the face value of them verses compared to each other... that man has free will... let me know and I will post some more... and thats what I said to do all along... compare scripture with itself.)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 201
(4/17/02 4:44 am) Reply
Re: I understand
"Am I to understand that you believe the Bible contradicts itself when it says God loves the "world" (John 3:16, your interpretation of "world") and yet hates some people who are in it (Psa. 5:5), or refuses to pray for it (John 17:9), etc.?
Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
(That does not mean he hates the world... but thou hatest all workers of iniquity..."
Nope, the verse says nothing about hating sin, it says "hatest all workers of iniquity" sin isn't a "worker" people are. The verse says God hates some people. Those people are part of the world. Please explain how this is not in contradiction with your view of John 3:16 (and leave out the blustering, please).
"(Well now where just getting into they claim and you claim stuff again bro... but hey thats what they say about you... you make the bible contradict itself... "Hey kinda like its bounces off of them and sticks to you... lol...")"
Document where I make the Bible contradict.
"(The outcome is the same... "
No, it is not the same. Don't lie. Document where myself or any other Calvinist have claimed that God makes (causes) people to sin, or don't claim it, as it is a lie.
"(They had not choice BUT to love darkness by your view... they can't repent or recieve the love of Christ... they never could."
They had the choice. They chose to love darkness more than light. They don't repent of receive the love of Christ, because they would never want to.
Please stop trying to make historical Calvinism fit your screwed up mold. That mold is the product of your mind, nothing else, and definately not historic Calvinism.
"(Oh I see so then they could have repented and changed, and been the election... they just choice not to... and God foreknew this... Jesus did come to pay for their sin, and wants them to be in heaven... they just love the darkness of their own, they could love the light... but their free will is not to... MonkeeSage... we got a problem here because thats what I been saying all along.)"
I never said all that mess. I said people make real choices, if they choose evil, it is because they wanted to, and that all people want to choose evil because of sin, unless God mercifully regenerates their heart.
"(I never said my name was written in the bible... its not, its written in heaven... your trying to build a strawman again bro... post where i said my name was written in the bible? Don't post anything else dude, just like ya told me not to... lol two can play this game.)"
You said: "I DON'T HAVE A DOCTRINE... other then the bible..."
There you have it. Now please answer. Since you have no doctrine and you believe your name is "written in heaven" show me where the Bible says that your name is writen in Heaven, please.
Please show me the passage that says "You choose to be elected or not to be" or that says "all men have free will." A "freewill offering" is a ceremonial offering, just like the "firstfruits" or "drink" offerings, that has nothing to do with your doctrine that all men have free will.
-J
S.D.G
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/17/02 4:48:19 am
Re: I understand
[ Am I to understand that you believe the Bible contradicts itself when it says God loves the "world" (John 3:16, your interpretation of "world") and yet hates some people who are in it (Psa. 5:5), or refuses to pray for it (John 17:9), etc.?
Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
(That does not mean he hates the world... but thou hatest all workers of iniquity..."
Nope, the verse says nothing about hating sin, it says "hatest all workers of iniquity" sin isn't a "worker" people are. The verse says God hates some people. Those people are part of the world. Please explain how this is not in contradiction with your view of John 3:16 (and leave out the blustering, please). ]
MonkeeSage please do try to read my posts... you even posted where i said... (That does not mean he hates the world... but thou hatest all workers of iniquity...")
(Then try to turn around and say I said He hates sin alone. Please read my posts, you even pasted it right above your comment)
[ No, it is not the same. Don't lie. Document where myself or any other Calvinist have claimed that God makes (causes) people to sin, or don't claim it, as it is a lie.
"(They had not choice BUT to love darkness by your view... they can't repent or recieve the love of Christ... they never could."
They had the choice. They chose to love darkness more than light. They don't repent of receive the love of Christ, because they would never want to.
Please stop trying to make historical Calvinism fit your screwed up mold. That mold is the product of your mind, nothing else, and definately not historic Calvinism. ]
(NO thats the way I see it and have EVERY right to share my view... your like either agree with me or shut up! lol please... second the outcome is the same... God made man... knowing full well He would sin... and then gave him no way out of that sin... by your view... THEY couldn't or did have a chance to repent, as you say its not in their nature... yet God created that nature and left them to die in their sin... the out come is the same... By your view God made man, knowing He would sin and gave some of them no way out of that sin... they couldn't worship Christ its not in their nature as you say... so God burns them in hell for not baing able to change what He never gave them a chance to change...)
(They had the choice. They chose to love darkness more than light. They don't repent of receive the love of Christ, because they would never want to.) "Again your missreading my post, thats what I say happened... you say they had no choice it was in their nature... please don't say one thing you believe on one post then try to change it here... YOU SAID... they couldn't repent because its not in their nature, they are born into sin and never could have been the election, but are to burn in hell because they didn't repent, YET say they couldn't, no didn't want to... please keep it your beliefs consistent.)
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
(If you can't get the face value of that... then I guess the Holy Ghost is leading us in different directions... )
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 211
(4/17/02 10:35 am) Reply
Re: I understand
Disregard this post.
Edited by: MonkeeSage at: 4/17/02 10:38:22 am
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 212
(4/17/02 10:37 am) Reply
Re: I understand
"MonkeeSage please do try to read my posts... you even posted where i said... (That does not mean he hates the world... but thou hatest all workers of iniquity...")"
DANGER WILL ROBINSON!! ERROR!! ERROR!! That does not compute!! :)
You tried to say that God only hates the sin but he loves the sinner. Psalms 5:5 says that God hates some people, namely, workers of iniquity--workers are people--their works are sin (iniquity); God hates the workers, not the works only. These people, whom God hates, are part of the mass that makes up the "world" in your interpretation of John 3:16, thus you have the clear contradiction that God loves all people who are in the world and hates some of them. Please give us an explaination.
"...the out come is the same..."
No, the outcome is not the same. And, even if it were the same, that would not prove your point! Anyone who can think rationally knows that just because "2 + 2" and "6 - 2" have the same outcome doesn't make them the same proposition. Duh. But using your reasoning, that the outcome is the same, so the doctrines are the same (as fatalism): then you believe in fatalism also. Since your outcome is the same; God creates some knowing they will never hear about Christ, or reject Christ, and He creates them anyways. Outcome is the same, so on this logic, the doctrines are the same. Therefore you also believe that there was no chance or choice, if I do. Obviously its just flawed logic, neither you or I believe in fatalism.
"you say they had no choice it was in their nature... please don't say one thing you believe on one post then try to change it here... YOU SAID... they couldn't repent because its not in their nature,"
Never said it, but I'd be glad for you to try and find a place where I did. What I have said, as you will see when you go back to look, is that they never will want to, because their nature is evil. Everyone who has heard of Christ has a "chance" to repent and have faith, 24 hrs. a day, 7 days a week, but every single one of them will always reject that chance (i.e., choose not to take it), because it is not agreeable to their fallen nature. Their choice was free, and real, and accountable. This was already covered in other forums.
Re: I understand
>>>>You tried to say that God only hates the sin but he loves the sinner.
(Show me that.)
Well I don't know what this whole thing has been about then because I have said all along they had free will to reject God... and it was their choice not too, they could have but didn't
(Fact their is a whole debate on the stance that I say we all have free will and you say we don't)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 216
(4/17/02 1:45 pm) Reply
Re: I understand
"(Show me that.)"
"Now if you need a book or calvin to tell you that John 3:16 means God so loved the WORLD... as a whole... but hates the actions of some men... like in psa 5:5 then maybe you do." (This forum, 4/16/02 5:05:46 pm)
Now please answer the contradiction, how is it that God loves the world, meaning every single individual in the world, and hates some of them (workers of iniquity)?
"(Fact their is a whole debate on the stance that I say we all have free will and you say we don't)"
Indeed. I deny that we have total self-government (autonomy), which only belongs to God, and affirm with the Lord that "...Truly...Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34).
As was made clear in the thread "Why do we do anything..." I believe in the concept of freedom of choice, and reject the concept of autonomous "free will." That is the whole issue. About that, we are agreed. :)
Re: I understand
>>>>You tried to say that God only hates the sin but he loves the sinner.
(Show me that.)
(no no no bro you said I said this... You tried to say that God only hates the sin but he loves the sinner. )
(And I want you to show it to me, where i said it, give me the forum name and the date.)
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 221
(4/17/02 2:06 pm) Reply
Re: I understand
I just did.
I said: "You tried to say that God only hates the sin but he loves the sinner."
Because you said: "Now if you need a book or calvin to tell you that John 3:16 means God so loved the WORLD... as a whole... but hates the actions of some men... like in psa 5:5 then maybe you do." (This forum, 4/16/02 5:05:46 pm)
Thus:
1) "John 3:16 means God so loved the WORLD... as a whole" and,
2) "hates the actions of some men... like in psa 5:5"
Thus: You tried to say that God only hates the sin but he loves the sinner.
God hates the people doing the actions, not just the actions.
Please answer:
how is it that God loves the world, meaning every single individual in the world, and hates some of them (men whose actions are evil)?
Re: I understand
how is it that God loves the world, meaning every single individual in the world, and hates some of them (men whose actions are evil)?
I never said He did... I said as a WHOLE... i even gave ya the grandma's pie
analogy your just not reading my post, then putting words in my mouth... now go search for the grandma's pie analogy... not my fault ya don't read the answers to your questions... and post where I said he loves the sinner and not the sin you keep forgetting to post it... give the forum name and date...
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 234
(4/17/02 4:14 pm) Reply
Re: I understand
OK. So John 3:16 doesn't say that God loves every single individual in the world?
Re: I understand
"(Show me that.)"
"Now if you need a book or calvin to tell you that John 3:16 means God so loved the WORLD... as a whole... but hates the actions of some men... like in psa 5:5 then maybe you do." (This forum, 4/16/02 5:05:46 pm)
KJChristianWarrior
ezOP
Posts: 279
(4/17/02 1:55:24 pm)
Reply Re: I understand
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>You tried to say that God only hates the sin but he loves the sinner.
(Show me that.)
(no no no bro you said I said this... You tried to say that God only hates the sin but he loves the sinner. )
(And I want you to show it to me, where i said it, give me the forum name and the date.)
MonkeeSage
Registered User
Posts: 221
(4/17/02 2:06:32 pm)
Reply | Edit Re: I understand
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just did.
I said: "You tried to say that God only hates the sin but he loves the sinner."
Because you said: "Now if you need a book or calvin to tell you that John 3:16 means God so loved the WORLD... as a whole... but hates the actions of some men... like in psa 5:5 then maybe you do." (This forum, 4/16/02 5:05:46 pm)
Thus:
1) "John 3:16 means God so loved the WORLD... as a whole" and,
2) "hates the actions of some men... like in psa 5:5"
Thus: You tried to say that God only hates the sin but he loves the sinner.
God hates the people doing the actions, not just the actions.
Re: I understand
"Now if you need a book or calvin to tell you that John 3:16 means God so loved the WORLD... as a whole... but hates the actions of some men... like in psa 5:5 then maybe you do." (This forum, 4/16/02 5:05:46 pm)
THAT doesnt say that he loved the ones that sinned... AS I said he loves the world as a whole... and wishes that none should perish... and I even gave ya and an analogy
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 236
(4/17/02 4:53 pm) Reply
Re: I understand
OK. So John 3:16 doesn't say that God loves every single individual in the world?
Re: I understand
No to me at face value it implies that God loves the world as a whole... HUMANS... and wishes that none perish...
Like this... If you asked God... do you love people yes or no... His answer would be yes... that don't mean he had to love each person... just like I have said before... that don't mean that they can't recieve the love of God if they would turn unto Him with all their heart... again free will at work.
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