I really depends on how you view salvation, I think...
In my understanding many are saved, but are not yet called, and so they are living in rebellion to God by being involved with an heretical Church (WTBTS).
A person (JW) I used to debate with about the Trinity on #ChristianDebate awhile back, one day, out of nowhere, msg'd me and told me that they had left the WTBTS and were attending an orthodox (Trinitarian) Church. (!!) :)
So, they "are able to be saved"...with that I think everyone can agree...but to answer the question of if any particular JW is, in fact, saved takes us a step beyond the question itself to another question, imo; how is one saved? Which is of course the whole issue over soteriology.
In any case, I believe we have a responsibility to warn them of their error from the Word and to pray for the salvation of their souls, and to assume the best case--that they are our brothers--even while we deny their false teachings.
Jehovah Witnesses, our family in Christ?
Those that are in WBTS (Watchtower Bible & Tract Society) is that they are able to receive salvation. However, salvation is not found within the WBTS. Their understanding about the nature and identity of Jesus Christ precludes them from salvation in their present position.
Salvation is found in none other then in Yeshua, the unique Son of God.
iHs Registered User
Posts: 21
(4/2/02 2:52 pm) Reply
Re: Jehovah Witnesses, our family in Christ?
Allow me to repost what i already posted for the topic, "What Is A Christian?"
What is a Christian?
Anybody who professes a special prayer?
Does the Bible say?
What is the standard?
I believe this basic dilemma to be the very core and basis of ones theological beliefs. I wander through the debate channels, #christiandebate, #religion, #christianwarrior, #biblechat, etc., and i see a wide variety of creeds. I see little unity and in fact see many philosophical and theological opposites included in the circle.
I think this is an area the 'church' has overlooked. We see many creeds and professions that arose from a need to define our heritage and beliefs as Christians. We find the early church fathers speaking out against Gnosticism and it's incorrect theology. We see the church answering the pelagians, the Roman Catholics, and many other groups.
However, things have changed today. Children are no longer required to read catechisms. Sunday school is a place for activitites and not learning. People who could not define the trinity are being baptised regularly.
I am in my first year of seminary at a General Baptist campus. I am simply amazed at the low standards my fellow students have for actual Bible study and prayer. I do not mean this in a derogatory manner. I have made many friends, and have heard much good preaching. It just seems to me that true in-depth Bible study has passed for 'seeker-friendly' Bible studies.
This has created a serious dilemma of recent. Due to the idea that it is better to be ecumenical than exclusionary, we have definitely allowed people and groups with professions far from orthodox Christianity to be welcomed into the church. As i go from room to room on dalnet, i see such a variety of creeds we are willing to call Christians that i wonder what the standards are.
Who do we not include? Evolutionary theists? Messianic Mystic Jews? People who claim the Bible is fallible? Who? Who do we exclude? Papal followers? Mormon polygamists? Muslim clerics? Who?
This is my dilemma. Who do we include and who do we exclude? Is being ecumenical more important than upholding a quality of belief?
There are creeds used by the Reformed Episcopal Church, of which i am one of them. They basically sum up the position of orthodoxy and have been around for quite some time.
The idea of creeds ties into my post on "what is a Christian". The early fathers thought it necessary to address certain 'factions' and their theological heresies and accordingly wrote creeds. If it was so important then, when only small groups and simpler ideologies were condemned, how much more important in these days of super-cults?
This is very true. The church throughout history has made attempts to eradicate, even at the cost of lives at times, those that taught heresy. Many creeds, catechisms, and doctrines came about due to this.
Now, while i would agree that these things have caused too much division already, i do think there is a need today to address some of the sects popping into Christianity. I mean, afterall, who is closer to true biblical theology, the guys on TBN, or the RCC? The AOG, or the PCA? Baptists or Methodists? What are the lines we cannot cross?
We see many new problems arising due to this; some churches ordaining gays, seeker friendly services that are more about our feelings than pleasing God, people who teach that God didn't exactly create man, he just created life and man evolved, messianic jews that are way overboard on works, etc., etc., and the list can go on. We can easily see that some groups claim things not found in the scriptures; KJV-only, indulgences, Marian dogma, extra-biblical books, knowing when Jesus will return, etc., etc., and the list could go on so much further.
It simply seems to me, that nowadays we are incredibly less eager to address a belief and label it heresy than the church was originally. Shouldn't we be addressing these new beliefs? Is it more imortant to be ecumenical than to stand on solid theology and expect others to also?
The situation with JW's, or any other cult, isn't actually any different than the problem with mormons, or bahais, or gnostics, etc. They all have beliefs outside of orthodoxy. The real question is to what degree is this viable. Do we exclude everybody that holds a different doctrine than mine? Who do we exclude, why, and who decides?
Re: Jehovah Witnesses, our family in Christ?
iHs you bring up all very valid points and questions... And there has to be a line drawn in the sand somewhere, as to doctrine teachings. For the most part, some teachings like JW's a wholly non bible based, does this mean that all JW's are not my brother in Christ... hardly, just confused. Does one that bows to the Pope and think he is infallible burn in hell... not by my reading of the bible. Does one that worships anything other then God burn in hell... hhhmmmm, yes in my view if at the time of death he/she hasn't turned to God as the ONLY things to worship. Is 'praying' to others, other then God worship. To me it is, I could be wrong... BUT if your prayers are going to anyone BUT God, you are worshipping something else in my book. I don't see ONE, not one righteous in God prayed to any other god without getting a talking (Or a warning not to do what they did after God's justice and wrath worketh, if ya know what I mean.) to by God or Christ.
Mormons... Well the first second page of the Book of Mormon sent to me said "This book and this Doctrine is to be held above all else and is the surest way to knowing God" or something to that effect. To me that falls under all the warnings of false doctrine... does that mean all mormons will burn in hell... not to me, because some don't the book of Mormon above the bible... BUT those that do... ALL the word allows me to say about this is it should not be done... as for polygamists #1 where to obey all the laws of the land unless they try to comprimise our Faith. #2 How smart a guy is one that wants more then one wife anyway!!! JUST one is a handful!
BUT ultimately I try to view all that confess Christ by their mouth, as their Lord and Savior. Just some not as informed as others, or as strong. I do this because the word instructed me how to ferret out the anti-christ from the believers.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1 Corinitains 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
(Is the junkie on the street corner that begs and prays to Christ with tears to help him stop, but in the end loses to the battle of the flesh, non Chrisian. I assure you not all of them, not all, even some that died from that last shot of dope in the end will be in heaven with us. Some say well he prayed more in one day then most preachers do in a week, if he was with Christ then Christ would have answered. And they might be right. But one could look at it another way too. Father requires us and others to come to Him by faith, now if there wasn't a bit of dirt on some Christians the world would look at the church and say... look, they are all up right, they all agree, they all use the same bible, and they all confess Christ. Therefore there must be a Christ, for all his followers are perfect in everyway. One this is done on a whole, they would start coming to God not because of pure faith in God, and the want of God, but because they "saw" something. Its the same reason Christians get sick, if no Christian ever got cancer this would be a sure sin that Christ is and was... see what I mean, same with division amoung the Church Body if we all just got alone and had not problems at all the others would see and know by sight that God is, and He won't have this, as you well know, He wants faith alone Just the way I see it... BUT that in no way means there are not decievers amoung us out to do the works of their Father as well. Which we are warned about not to fall for.
Bless ya, and you bring up some timeless questions to the forefront... thanks...
Daaaaa King
Pateaton
Unregistered User
(4/27/02 9:20 pm) Reply
JW.s believe in Christ !
I'm a J.W., we all believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. I have often been asked in my rounds, 'Are you born of God?' To which I show them the scripture in 1John.5 which says,
"Anyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ, is born of God."
and.
"He who confesses me before other people, him will I confess before my Father and His holy angels."
Well okay then... IF you are Christian then why follow such false teachings as the Kindom Hall preachers... such as Jesus came in 1914 amoung other things? Second why did the watchtower publish the NWT... and take so many things out, which not only are in the KJV NIV NASB YLT and others... but in the Greek as well... and last but not least... WHY claim the 144,000 in revelation are JW's and not messianic jews... of the 12 tribes of Jacob.
(By the way it's me that keeps "lifting" all them watchtower tracks out of them waiting rooms!!! )
Re: JW.s believe in Christ !
I have some questions for my JW brother.
Since the WTS prohibits the use of blood transfusions, why does it permit the infusion of albumin, clotting factors, and gamma globulins, all of which are derived from human blood? Since Acts 15:29 clearly refers to the old Jewish law of not EATING blood (Gen 9:4, Lev 3:17, Deut 12:16), and since the WTS has changed its teachings so many times on major issues like organ transplantation, the definition of "generation", the year of Armageddon, etc, etc, and simply calls these changes "New Light", how can you be sure they won't some day change their teachings on blood transfusions and refer to the change as "New Light" also?
Regarding Jesus' return to earth, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that it occurred in l914 as an invisible return. That event is described in Zechariah 14:4, which states, "... and his feet will actually stand in that day upon the mountain of the olive trees which is in front of Jerusalem on the east." If Jesus has no body and if his return was invisible, how do you explain this verse?
Does Prov 4:18 really justify an organization replacing doctrines and failed prophecies with new doctrines and prophecies, or does it simply contrast the benefit to the "righteous" of obeying a wise father (Prov 4:10-19)? False teachings can be called "false words" and Prov 13:5 says, "A false word is what the righteous hates..." When the WTS changes a teaching to something that is totally different, is it like a light that is getting brighter and brighter or more like having one false light (word) completely turned off and a totally different light turned on? Do you think the WTS would be critical of any other organization that changed its teachings as many times on as many different issues over the last 100 years as the WTS has?
Paul said, "... for as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives." (1Cor 11:26). If Christ arrived in 1914, why do Jehovah's Witnesses continue to partake of the bread and wine? Shouldn't they have stopped in 1914?
Since the WTS claims "apostolic succession", can it trace its roots all the way back to Christ (Mt 16:1 ? If so, who was it that "passed the torch of God's spirit" to C. T. Russell when he founded the organization? What was the name of this individual or individuals?
Since the WTS currently rejects most of the teachings of its founder, Charles Taze Russell (who was president of the organization from 1879-1916), and since they also reject "judge" Joseph Franklin Rutherford, who succeeded Russell as president from 1916-1942, how can you be sure that in 25 more years, the WTS won't reject the current president, Milton Henschel (1992-present), as they did Russell and Rutherford? What kind of confidence can you have in an organization that rejected its founder and first two presidents for the first 63 years of its existence - over 50% of the time they have existed?!
If there is no conscious awareness after death, how could the "spirits in prison", who lived during the time of Noah, be preached to by Christ after His death (I Pet 3:18-20) and how could the good news be "declared even unto the dead" (I Pet 4:5-6)?
What is the correct spelling of God's proper name, "Yahweh" or "Jehovah"? If Jehovah's Witnesses maintain that "Yahweh" is more proper, why do they misspell it "Jehovah"? If the name of God is so important, then should you not only pronounce it correctly, but spell it correctly too?
If the soul is the body, why does Jesus make a distinction between the body and the soul in Mt 10:28?
Jn 1:3 says in reference to Christ, "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence". How could Christ have been a created being if ALL things came into existence through him? If Jesus was a created being, then according to Jn 1:3, Jesus would have had to create himself.
Heb 3:1 refers to "holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling". In Mk 3:35, Jesus says, "Whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother..." Therefore, according to the Bible, whoever does the will of God is a brother of Jesus and a partaker of the heavenly calling. How can this be if the Watchtower Society teaches that only 144,000 people go to heaven?
If the soul dies when the body dies, how could the "souls" of Rev 6:9- 11, who were of those who had been "slaughtered" (i.e., killed), cry out "with a loud voice, saying: 'Until when Sovereign Lord ..."?
The Watchtower Society teaches that the earth will never be destroyed or depopulated. How can it be, then, that God says in Isa 51:6,"... the earth itself will wear out, and its inhabitants will die like a mere gnat...", and that Jesus says in Mt 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away...", and that John says in Rev 21:1 that he saw"... a new heaven and a NEW earth, for the former heaven and the FORMER earth had passed away, and the sea is NO MORE."?
The WTS teaches that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will not reside with Christ in his heavenly kingdom. How then do you explain Mt 8:11 in which Jesus says," But I tell you that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens"?
In Jn 6:51, Jesus says that a person must eat "of this bread" in order to "live forever", and that "the bread that I give IS my flesh". In Jn 6:63, Jesus says "... Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves." In Jn 6:54-55, Jesus says, "He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life..." and "... for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink." Do you partake of the flesh of Christ, as Jesus commanded, in order to have life in yourself and in order to live forever?
Re: JW.s believe in Christ !
Also these questions...
Does the WTS teach / Do you believe that you should tell the truth?
Are you presently teaching and/or plan to teach your child the teachings of the WTS?
Does the WTS teach / Do you believe that all other religions are false?
Does the WTS teach / Do you believe that practicing members of other religions are "false religionists"?
Does the WTS teach / Do you believe that "false religionists" are "agents of the devil"?.
Does the WTS teach / Do you believe that practicing members of other religions are controlled by Satan?
Does the WTS teach / Do you believe that your former spouse is controlled by Satan?
Does the WTS teach / Do you believe that everyone is either part of their organization or Satan's organization?
Does the WTS teach / Do you believe that the world is wicked?.
Does the WTS teach / Do you believe that Armageddon is coming very soon?
Does the WTS teach / Do you believe that at Armageddon, all people who are not JW's will be destroyed?
Does the WTS teach / Do you believe that a child should resist as much as they can a court ordered blood transfusion?
Does the WTS teach / Do you believe that you should refuse to give consent for a blood transfusion even if you were told by a competent physician that a blood transfusion was absolutely necessary in order to save your child's life?
If you were in an emergency situation where your child was bleeding to death, would you bring your child to a hospital for treatment if you were SURE that your child would receive an emergency or court ordered blood transfusion?
Are there any teachings of the WTS with which you disagree?
If yes, specifically what are they?
Does the WTS teach / Do you believe that the WTS is God's one and only channel of communication to the world?
Does the WTS teach / Do you believe that the WTS speaks for God?
Do you have any doubts about the authority of the WTS?
If the WTS teaches something, do you believe it to be true just because the WTS says that it is?
Does the WTS teach / Do you believe that it is okay to lie in order to protect the organization?
Re: JW.s believe in Christ !
All good questions... BUT I have learned with JW's not to ask them all at once or it scares them away from a debate not having the answers... to most... they feel if they just answer some it shows that they can't answer all things about their doctrine... and this makes them run for the hills.
pateaton
Unregistered User
(5/25/02 8:03 pm) Reply
JW.s believe in Christ !
Hey this is a good forum. Where ya bin all my life. Oh well, let's get down to it.
Christian soldier raised some good points,he said:-
<< 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. >>
I guess all J.Ws are born of God.
<< 1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: >>
Since we all believe Jesus came in the flesh, then the spirit that motivates us must be of God.
<< 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. >>
We are forever confessing that Jesus appeared in the flesh. John must have been one of us!!
<< 1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. >>
Yes, we believe and declare he was the son of God. So far, John hasn't said anything about Jesus being God. Neither do we!
<< 1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. >>
We confess both.
<< 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: >>
Yep, we are of God here too.
<< 1 Corinitains 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. >>
Wow, we even have Paul on our side of the fence.
According to this, we must all have the 'Holy Ghost'
for we certainly confess him as being 'Lord'.
So we can't be that bad can we!!
-Pat.
pateaton
Unregistered User
(5/25/02 9:02 pm) Reply
J.Ws believe in Christ.
Hi Warrior, you were saying
<< Well okay then... IF you are Christian then why follow such false teachings as the Kindom Hall preachers... such as Jesus came in 1914. >>
While this teaching is still 'in the books', the main shift in the 'Kingdom Message' now looks 'forward' to the 'Coming of the Lord' to set up his Kigdom on this earth.
Also, we no longer teach that the 1914 generation is the 'Last Generation'. That Rutherford doctrine had a good run, but is now laid to rest.
<< Second why did the watchtower publish the NWT... and take so many things out, which not only are in the KJV NIV NASB YLT and others... but in the Greek as well...>>
What things specifically? I understand there are quite a few passages, say, in the KJV which are not in the oldest Greek versions - the '...three witnesses in heaven...' for example.
KJV N.T. is largely translated from the 'Texus Receptus' - a Greek translation from the Latin Vulgate by Erasmus in the 14th century.
God only knows what revisions Catholic scribes thought were necesary to the the Vulgate through the centuries the work was in their tender care!!
My bet is, poor Jerome is turning over in his grave every time some of these passages are read.
<< and last but not least... WHY claim the 144,000 in revelation are JW's and not messianic jews... of the 12 tribes of Jacob. >>
Agreed, some of us are waiting for 'New Light' on this one.
<<< (By the way it's me that keeps "lifting" all them watchtower tracks out of them waiting rooms!!! ) >>
And it's me that's replacing them and at my own expense!
How much are you owing me now??
Re: J.Ws believe in Christ.
Also, we no longer teach that the 1914 generation is the 'Last Generation'. That Rutherford doctrine had a good run, but is now laid to rest.
(Well I have a book, copyright 1996 "the greatest man that ever lived." where on the second to the last page "The pages have no numbers for some reason, perhaps so one cannot pin point a page tpo another." Anywho... it says that same doctrine, that Christ came back in 1914 and have ruling on earth "IN SECRET" ALSO the WatchTower claims it is God inspired, how could this be true if it has been wrong so many times...)
<< Second why did the watchtower publish the NWT... and take so many things out, which not only are in the KJV NIV NASB YLT and others... but in the Greek as well...>>
(Yes but two wrongs dont make a right... just because others did it doesnt mean the watchtower should as well... )
<< and last but not least... WHY claim the 144,000 in revelation are JW's and not messianic jews... of the 12 tribes of Jacob. >>
Agreed, some of us are waiting for 'New Light' on this one
(HEY i have a idea.... why not just believe the word of God, that they are of the 12 tribes? huh)
<<< (By the way it's me that keeps "lifting" all them watchtower tracks out of them waiting rooms!!! ) >>
And it's me that's replacing them and at my own expense!
How much are you owing me now??
(Cripes I knew I would get caught sooner or later!!!)
~The greatest test of courage on earth is to bear defeat without losing heart.~
pateaton
Unregistered User
(5/28/02 10:27 am) Reply
Are J.Ws Christians?
HI fleshNblood ,
Don't think I have forgotton you, you asked a lot of good valid questions and I am going through them giving them the attention they deserve. But I may have to split up my response into shorter and more manageable posts, which should keep me busy for most of the summer!
---------------------------------
[quote:] how can you be sure they won't some day change their teachings on blood transfusions and refer to the change as "New Light" also? [/quote]
They already have. Now - if it is a matter of life or death - it becomes a matter of conscience.
But the faithful are still advised that the Word itself has not changed about taking alien blood into your system.
Personality changes have been reported about some who have had transfusions. This is not surprising if as Leviticus teaches us; "The life (or soul) of all flesh resides in the blood." (Le 17:11)
You wouldn't want to take someone elses 'soul' into your system would you? He might be a crook or a queer. If so, how would these problems affect you?
If these things are true, then it's not a bit of wonder Jehovah came across so strongly on this issue and even caused the commandment to be carried over into the Law of Grace. (Acts 15.20)
[Quote:]
Regarding Jesus' return to earth, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that it occurred in l914 [/quote]
So? While that old doctrine is still in the books, we are not asked to push it anymore.
[Quote:] If Jesus has no body and if his return was invisible, how do you explain this verse? [/quote]
Unlike his Father, we believe Jesus has a body which he can cause to appear and disappear at will.
" Look at my hands and feet, that it is I myself: feel them, and see for yourself;.... (Lu 24:39)
[Quote:] Does Prov 4:18 really justify an organization replacing doctrines and failed prophecies with new doctrines and prophecies?[/quote]
Yes, as the saying goes, 'the longer you live, the more you learn'. No one knows it all just yet. Even Paul speaking for himself admitted he could only see things vaguely. (1Cor. 13.12) Wisdom tells us: (Prov 4.18 NWT)
"The way of the righteous is like a bright light that keeps getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established."
This has been our experience.
[Quote:]
Do you think the WTS would be critical of any other organization that changed its teachings as many times on as many different issues over the last 100 years as the WTS has? [/quote]
No, that would be a sign of progress.
[Quote:]
Paul said, "... for as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives." (1Cor 11:26). If Christ arrived in 1914, why do Jehovah's Witnesses continue to partake of the bread and wine? Shouldn't they have stopped in 1914? [/quote]
In a way we did! In the annual communion service at the Passover, the wine and the unleaven bread is solemnly passed around, but only those born in 1914 or before may partake of the emblems of His Body.
But now, there are precious few of them left.
Re: Are J.Ws Christians?
I asked:
"Do you think the WTS would be critical of any other organization that changed its teachings as many times on as many different issues over the last 100 years as the WTS has?"
You answered:
"No, that would be a sign of progress."
So, I must say that God never changes, so why does the beliefs of JWs change? Shouldn't your beliefs have been right from the moment God gave them to your founder?
God is the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
~The greatest test of courage on earth is to bear defeat without losing heart.~
pateaton
Unregistered User
(5/29/02 8:36 am) Reply
Are J.Ws Christians?
Hi fleshAndblood, you were asking:
Quote: Since the WTS claims "apostolic succession", can it trace its roots all the way back to Christ (Mt 16:1 ? If so, who was it that "passed the torch of God's spirit" to C. T. Russell when he founded the organization? What was the name of this individual or individuals?
Darned if I know! The Society has always eschewed any association with mainstream Christianity, (Christendom) believing it to be mostly of Pagan roots, (Tri-theism, with its Christmases, Easters, Halloweens, going to heaven when you die etc.) but, nevertheless have always beleved in the 'Little Flock' - the loyal remnant of true Christianity. We view ourselves as the 'Woman' of Rev 12 who fled from the flood of Pagan converts pouring into the Church with their strange Jesus (Tamuz) and their strange festivals and holidays. She wanted to stay pure.
Lutheranism has never been viewed as a reformation, but as a 'rebellion' - daughter harlots rebelling against the Mother of Harlots.
Luther wanted to declare war against the Jews, confiscate all their property and set their homes on fire. We don't hear much about that, but it's part of his record.
Hitler was a Catholic with strong ties with Rome and was protected by the 'Concordat' he signed with Rome.
Anabaptists were mercilessly slaughtered by the Protestant church. They learned these lessons from their old mother Rome.
Have you wondered why we believe the church system is mostly of the wicked one?
Quote: Since the WTS currently rejects most of the teachings of its founder, Charles Taze Russell (who was president of the organization from 1879-1916), and since they also reject "judge" Joseph Franklin Rutherford, who succeeded Russell as president from 1916-1942, how can you be sure that in 25 more years, the WTS won't reject the current president, Milton Henschel (1992-present), as they did Russell and Rutherford? What kind of confidence can you have in an organization that rejected its founder and first two presidents for the first 63 years of its existence - over 50% of the time they have existed?!
Like I said, that's progress!
We believe we are moving slowly towards that perfect 'Light' when even the evenings will know no darkness at all. The heads, like the early founders of the Congregation - John, James, Paul; profess only to 'know in part and to prophesy in part'. While we appreciate the guidance by our elders, our confidence is not in men but in God.
Quote: If there is no conscious awareness after death, how could the "spirits in prison", who lived during the time of Noah, be preached to by Christ after His death (I Pet 3:18-20) and how could the good news be "declared even unto the dead" (I Pet 4:5-6)?
Scripture sometimes refers to the dead as those who are 'asleep'. There is, as a rule, little or no awareness in sleep. The sleep of death has even less still. Only Jesus or sometimes a witch can wake them up for a while. Remember how Jesus told his disciples Lazarus was now asleep, and he would have to go and wake him up. (John 11.11) The disciples couldn't figure it so Jesus explained in their own language - "...Lazarus is dead."
As you will know, the witch of Endor had no problem raising up Samuel the prophet (1Sam.2 . This is such an interesting account which zaps a lot of current theology concerning the dead, that most church people don't even believe it! But there it is. Sam must have been a light sleeper and rebuked Saul for disturbing his beauty sleep!
Chronicles tells us of all the kings of Judah who died as sleeping with their fathers. Even a wicked son, when he died went to sleep in the same place and with his righteous father. It would appearthat before Christ, there was no distinction in death between the wicked and the righteous. They both went to the same place. Solomon lamented over this fact somewhere in Ecclesiastices - the good and the bad; the wise and the stupid; man or beast all ended up in the same place -sheol.
-Pat.
pateaton
Unregistered User
(5/29/02 7:29 pm) Reply
Are J.Ws Christians?
To fleshAndblood You were asking:
Quote: What is the correct spelling of God's proper name, "Yahweh" or "Jehovah"? If Jehovah's Witnesses maintain that "Yahweh" is more proper, why do they mis-spell it "Jehovah"? If the name of God is so important, then should you not only pronounce it correctly, but spell it correctly too?
Actually, 'Jehovah' is not a Watchtower invention as so many think it is. It goes right back to the Massoretes Hebrew text of the 10th century.
As you know, the original Hebrew text had no vowels, so pronunciation of words and names could only be handed down the line orally - however reliable that would be!
The Massoretes scholars wanted to restore the Hebrew text which had gone out of general use - no one could read it. (In the 4th century Jerome couldn't even find a complete Hebrew text for his translation into Latin. So he used the Greek 'Septuagint') So they added to the text a system of dots and dashes to all the words and names indicating to us how the 'Tetragramaton' should be pronounced. They came up with 'Yahowah' . The letters 'J' and 'V' were introduced to the English alphabet only 500 years ago, primarily, to accomodate the correct pronunciation of the Divine Name.
Believe it or not, various Rabbinical schools are not entirely agreed if Hashem (the NAME) should be pronounced with a 'Y' sound or a 'J' sound, with a 'W' sound or a 'V' sound. Both the KJV and the NWT both use the 'J' and 'V' in all Simetic names now pronounced with a 'Y' or a 'W'. See the first 8 chapters of 1Chronicles. You will look in vain for any Hebrew name spelled with a 'Y' and a 'W'. 'Yahwah' or Yahweh' , as we understand it, has only been used by the Jews for a century or two. Prior to that, it was 'Jehovah'.
So 'Jehovah' - not 'Yahowah' - it is.
Quote: If the soul is the body, why does Jesus make a distinction between body and soul in Mt 10:28?
No, the soul is not the body. It is the 'life' of the body. Which is why Jesus tells us not to fear man who can only kill the body, but can do no more than that. But to fear God who can destroy both soul, and body in Gehenna. It seems here, if man seperates the soul from the body, the body dies but the soul lives on in a state of sleep as we have seen.
That is one theory, but on the other hand, in the resurrection, we are taught the souls of the righteous will be raised with bodies which are incorruptible - a different kind of body - like Christ's glorious body.
"Beloved ones, now we are the children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be like: We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him; because we shall see him just as he is." (1Jo 3:2 nwt)
With eyes of flesh, we could not see Him as he really is in all his splendor - and live to tell the tale. But with the eyes of that glorious body like his body, we could do it.
Quote: So, I must say that God never changes, so why does the beliefs of JWs change? Shouldn't your beliefs have been right from the moment God gave them to your founder? God is the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
Agreed, if Russell really did get his teachings from the Throne, they would be perfect.
I'm not too sure of what he taught, my studies don't go back that far. I know his first prediction of the coming of the Lord was around 1887. Of course we don't hear anything about that now. When that passed, his second prediction was 1914. We have been stuck with that date ever since, but twe are not told to teach it any more.
Quote: Jn 1:3 says in reference to Christ, "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence". How could Christ have been a created being if ALL things came into existence through him? If Jesus was a created being, then according to Jn 1:3, Jesus would have had to create himself.
On our rounds of weekly visits, church folk often confront us with this question. I think Colossians 1 deals with it best. V 13 & 14 tells us how God delivered us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of His Son by means of the ransom he paid for the forgiveness of our sins.
15, He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation
16. Because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and on the earth, things both visible and invisible,..." (nwt).
In this version, the word 'other' has been added to clarify your question.
I have emphasized that Jesus was the first one to be 'born' . He created all the angels and other heavenly beings, but he himself was 'born' or created by God Himself as the only begotten son of God. (God did beget him) The nwt added the word ‘other' to bring this point across. So God created or begot Jesus, and Jesus created everything else. That's how it looks to us.
We reject the Trinitarian creed of him being ‘Co-eternal' with his Father. Most fathers we know seem to be older than their sons!!
[quote ]Heb 3:1 refers to "holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling". In Mk 3:35, Jesus says, "Whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother..." Therefore, according to the Bible, whoever does the will of God is a brother of Jesus and a partaker of the heavenly calling. How can this be if the Watchtower Society teaches that only 144,000 people go to heaven? [/quote]
‘Heavenly calling' could mean going there, but not necessarily so. It could also mean being called by God who is in heaven. For example, in Is 43.1 we have;
Isa 43:1 "Now this is what Jehovah says who created you, O Jacob, and the one who formed you O Israel, do not be afraid: for I have repurchased you, and have called you by your name; you are mine."
Here, we could say Israel had a ‘heavenly calling ‘ too. That is, they were called by heaven to be God's people, but there is no specific promise that every Israelite will go to heaven when they die.
Likewise, scripture teaches that we are Israelites too, having been grafted into the Israel tree to replace those who have been cut off from their people. We call this, the ‘replacement theology'. We are told this salvation is to all who are called of God to be saints in Christ
Jesus. ".... and to as many as Jehovah our God shall call to himself." (Act 2.39)
Even so, there is no promise we will all go to heaven when we die. The contrary seems to be more specific. God promised Abraham he would be given the earth as an everlasting possession. (Gen 17.8 & 48.4)
There are other promises to us too;
"The righteous will possess the earth and will live in it forever'. (Ps. 37.29)
No specific promise of heaven even though we have all had a heavenly calling.
Quote: If the soul dies when the body dies, how could the "souls" of Rev 6:9- 11, who were of those who had been "slaughtered" (i.e., killed), cry out "with a loud voice, saying: 'Until when Sovereign Lord ..."?
As we have seen, when we sleep, we often stir into wakefulness. It seems this happens even in sleep of death. Remember how Samuel was fast asleep, and that wicked old witch woke him up?
Re: Are J.Ws Christians?
Thanks for answering, I have to find time to study them in depth.
BUT PLEASE...
Why do JWs not celebrate holidays and birthdays?
~The greatest test of courage on earth is to bear defeat without losing heart.~
marydont Registered User
Posts: 1
(6/6/02 1:23 pm) Reply
Re - J.W.s
For Pete's sakes Pat, what the heck are you doing defending that JW hash again. I thought you had gotton out of all that. You've been a good Christian girl for over 2 years now.
I'm glad to see you keep your JW thing to yourself on "the Time of the End", or it would be the "end" for you. Dave wouldn't countenance that, I'm surprised he allows Jews on there.
OK, I wanna know once and for all, what are you? A JW or a Christian. You can't be both.
Jehovah Witnesses, our family in Christ?
Just the way I see it... BUT that in no way means there are not decievers amoung us out to do the works of their Father as well. Which we are warned about not to fall for. 
? If so, who was it that "passed the torch of God's spirit" to C. T. Russell when he founded the organization? What was the name of this individual or individuals?
Re: Are J.Ws Christians? 
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