So give me the low down there mary... if you die a JW you burn in hell... there isn't one JW who is of Christ? How do you see this... ALL JW's are vessels fit for wrath? Beast made to be taken ands destroyed?
pateaton
Unregistered User
(6/7/02 11:49 am) Reply
Are J.Ws Christians?
Hi fleshN blood
Quote: Why do JWs not celebrate holidays and birthdays?
The word 'Holiday' is derived from 'Holy Day'. Just about all of these 'holy days' are of Pagan or Heathen origin.
Easily the most popular of which is Christmas, supposedly the birthdate of Christ. Since Jesus never celebrated his own birth day, and we can safely assume discouraged any suggestion from hiis disciples that he should, we do not know the date of his birth.
One tradition has it that December 25 was the date when it was observed the sun was beginning to get stronger and nature was returning back to life again. So it became a day of great celebrations. People gave gifts to one another, trees were decorated, the yule log was burned to roast an ox. etc; etc.. The season was called the 'Saturnalia' honoring the planet Saturn the God of Agriculture.
The Catholic church, in order to make converts of these Pagans adopted a policy - not of prohibiting these festivals, but 'Christianizing ' them. Thus the 'Birth of the Sun' became the 'Birth of the Son'. So these Pagans could worship the Christian God without much change in format.
The same with the Easter Holidays. I'm not sure of the details of all the traditions, but one of them was almost prophetic!
It shows us a virgin mother Astarte who gave birth to Tamuz sired by Zeus, the supreme deity of Greek mythology. Tamuz died, went down to hades but was eventually raised to life again, Astarte brcame the queen of heaven and was worshiped as a goddess of fertility - hence the easter rabbit that lays easter eggs - so on and so on.You would be hard put to find a pure Christian holiday. We don't believe there is any such thing
. Birthdays are frowned on by the Organization for various reasons.
One, in scripture, no righteous person ever celebrated their own birth date. When the heathen did it, all kinds of sin erupted.
The Emperor Nero put on a splash for one of his birthdays. The celebrations were cut short when it got dark, but no matter. He ordered some Christians to be dowsed with oil, strung up on poles and set on fire. That solved the lighting problem, and the party carried on in full swing.
When Herod threw a party at his own birthday, it cost John the baptist his head.
No doubt, the Watchtower has encountered too many problems with birthday celebrations, it decidedto ban the practice.
But in our home we have ways of getting around it!!!
Re: Are J.Ws Christians?
First, you ASSUME?
That means you don't know, and you make such powerful decisions based upon having NO information. That is a very bad idea.
Do you cut your hair? Did Jesus cut His hair? We don't know, but we can ASSUME he did not. So, therefore by the logic of the JWs, to cut your hair is wrong.
That goes for both holidays and birthdays.
Do you feel that settings aside a special day to give thanks and honor to Jesus is wrong? Why not pick a day, any day, and celebrate His birthday. A very good day it was, when He was born into this world, as flesh and blood, to live as we live, and to suffer the same temptations as we do.
Then, He died on the cross to carry our sins on His shoulders, to take them into hell where He spent 3 days, suffering that we don't have to suffer, and then to overcome death and to rise from the grave victorious over death and hell. That was a glorious day, that Jesus died for us, and we should do no less than choose one day to honor Him, for what He did for us.
Respectfully, it sounds like JWs do not honor Jesus when you deny giving Him the glory and Honor due him.
That is my humble opinion.
~The greatest test of courage on earth is to bear defeat without losing heart.~
pateaton
Unregistered User
(6/8/02 10:31 pm) Reply
JWs & Birthdays etc..
Hi fleshNblood
Quote:
Why do JWs not celebrate holidays and birthdays?
The word 'holiday' at one time, used to mean 'Holy Day', easily the most popular of which, is Christmas.
Since Jesus never observed birthdays - neither his own nor anyone elses - we haven,t a clue when he was born. Historians are not much help, they say Christ was born 5 years before - Christ. No, that's not a typing error!
The origin of Christmas celebrations has nothing to do with the birth of Christ, but stems from the winter soltice for the 'return' or 'birth of the sun'. The sun would get warmer causing crops to grow.
Saturn, the Roman god of agriculture, was thought to have something to do with this, so this winter festival became known as the 'Saturnalia'.
Catholic authorities believed the best way to entice Pagans to join the church, was to preserve their festivals even if the names of these feasts had to be changed a bit and given 'Christian' names. Thus, the 'Birth of the Sun' feast, became the 'Birth of the Son' - The Son being our Lord. The Saturnalia became the 'Mass of Christ' or Christ Mass'.
But, as they say, a 'rose by any other name, still smells like a rose'. So it is with this old Pagan festival with it's drunkeness and debauchery. Last Christmas, I lost count how many times the cops stopped me to see. They were usually polite about it with "Good evening ma'am. It's our duty during this season to stop motorists to see if they have been over imbibing alcoholic beverages - but as I can see, that's not the case with you. Have yourself a wonderful evening"
So much for this 'Holy Day'.
I suppose you will know about Easter named after the goddess Astarte. There are various traditions for Easter, but this one is almost prophetic. It says here, she was a perpetual virgin who gave birth to a male child by the name of Tamuz who was sired by Zeus chief of the gods. Later Tamuz died prematurely, went down to the nether regions, was raised to life again by Zeus. Joined her mother who was now the queen of heaven. etc. etc..
No acurate date has been set for this one either. At first the Council of Nicaea in 325 ruled it should be on the first Sunday after the full moon following the vernal equinox, but ran into problems with the inaccurate Julian Calendar.
So Easter is a no-go. We don't want to end up worshiping the wrong Jesus - the son of the queen of heaven!
Most Christians don't see anything wrong with birthdays.
But if we take our cue from Godly people in the Bible, we won't find any of them celebrating their birthdays.
We see in history and the Bible that when birthdays were celebrated, all kind of sins erupted.
It was Herod's birthday shindig which cost JOHN THE bAPTIST HIS HEAD.
History tells us how Nero decided to throw one at his birthday. All went well until sun-down, then it got dark. But no matter, he ordered some Christians to be dowsed in oil. strung up on poles and ignited. That solved the lighting problem and the party carried on in full swing.
We don't follow this heathen example.
Re: JWs & Birthdays etc..
Again, you assume too much, and are not prepared to defend your decision.
Just because the Bible doesn't mention the celebration of birthdays, you assume it to be wrong to di it. WHY?
In the Bible, there is a mention of a wedding. If they had celebrations of weddings, why not birthdays? And, they celebrated many other things, so why not holidays?
I celebrate Halloween, not as a pagan holiday, but as a day to glorify God, and to give thanks to Jesus for His Love and His sacrifice for our sins, and to pass our candy in His honor.
I celebrate Christmas in honor of the day that God gave us His Son, Jesus, to live as us, and to walk among us, to give honor and glory to Him.
I celebrate birthdays to give honor to God and to His Son, Jesus, for the Love and Grace they give us, for allowing us to have another year of life, to live for Them, to honor Them.
So, the Bible never mentions using electricity, nor computers, nor cars, nor many other things which JWs use daily, and yet JWs use them. I consider this rather silly on the part of JWs to do, and I find your second post, not responding to what I wrote, but merely reposting what you had written, rather offensive. You are dismissing me in a childish way, and it does not show that you are giving me any respect as a brother in Christ. So, try to respond to what I say next time.
In the name of Jesus Christ, please respond to my words, ot with the same statement.
Thanks!
~The greatest test of courage on earth is to bear defeat without losing heart.~
pateaton
Unregistered User
(6/10/02 10:06 pm) Reply
Re - JWs
I'm sorry 'fleshNblood' for doubling up on that last post. What happened was, just as I was about to send it off, this box of wires froze up on me. When I checked st the bottom of the page, it wasn't there. So I assumed it didn't go through then I wrote another one and sent that but found there were 2 pages, not one.
Oh well, the points were worth repeating. John told us not to love the world nor the things in the world.
If you do you will find yourself worshiping Satan. He instituted Halloween, Easter, Christmas, Sundays and such like. They are all Satan's holy days he has reserved for himself. To observe what Satan has intituted is to acknowledge him as your lord.
While worshiping on these days for what they were designed, it makes no difference what name you call him - Satan or Jesus. It is still Satan who receives your worship, because they are his holy-days.
The Pope who is Satan's Christ, instituted Sunday as the 'lord's day'. Satan became effectively the lord of Sunday worship - WORLD WIDE !!
You may argue, 'But doesn't the Watchtower worship on Sundays too?'. Yes, but not as the Lord's day, but simply because it is a convenient day to do so.
You may have noticed that Watchtower brothers have smart hair-cuts - very un-Christ like. Paul wrote in 1Cor 11, it was a shameful thing for men to have long hair. He also said it was a shameful thing to hang on the stake. Christ did both. He took on our shame and became a curse for for us. He identified himself - not only with us, but with our shame. That's why the bretheren do not have beards, or hippie like hair.
- Pat.
pateaton
Unregistered User
(6/11/02 8:59 pm) Reply
Re - JWs
Hi Mary
You wanted to know whether I was a Christian or a J.W., you thought I couldn't be both.
I have been trying to convince people on this board that it is possible to be both.
If you read my posts on this forum, you will see I always give a reason or a scripture for every staement I make. I suggest you do the same.
What you may not know is, Dave and Hans were witnesses themselves at one time and quite high up I understand. They were both 'Ministerial Servants'. Which meant they were both in very good standing. But I think the difference between them and myself is, they have come out in body but not yet fully out in 'spirit'.
Whereas, down at the Hall, I'm usually present in body, but absent in spirit!!
Re: Re - JWs
Sorry, but just as God never changes, neither should our beliefs. They should be steadfast in His Word, and to have a sect like JWs whose beliefs have changed, and changed, and changed, I say they are like the wind.
How many ex-JWs were ex-communicated for doing things that the JW faith now accepts as okay?
~The greatest test of courage on earth is to bear defeat without losing heart.~
marydont Registered User
Posts: 2
(6/12/02 8:46 pm) Reply
Re - JWs
Dear Christian Warrior,
I'm not saying all J.Ws are going to hell. It's hard to believe God will send them to hell just for believing dumb things like 1914. No, I think they will be saved alright, because Christ died for their sins, and they believe in Him a bit, but that 's just it. They make a lot of this Jehovah guy but have got Jesus on the back burner. He ort to be on the front burner. It says somewhere "That He might have Pre-eminence in all things". Not on the back burner in all things.
Another thing, I was reading a post by Hans who is a Jew but Pat tells me use to be a JW - now if that ain't a mix up..... Anyway, He was telling another Jew that according to his studies of the Hebrew text in Zechariah 12. Jesus seems to be Jehovah or Y.H.W.H. He says - Jehovah speaking - " They will look upon me whom they have pierced." So they pierce Jehovah or the LORD. But JWs don't believe that.
And again, In Hebrews 1 it says "And of the Son He (God) says, thy throne O God is for ever and ever..."
But JWs don't believe the Son is God.
Pat, I hope you are reading this you dumb jerk. And don't say I never give scripture to make my point, because I do. In His Love.
Re: Re - JWs
Okay first off... I agree with you that one... NOT all JW's will burn in hell... mary, and yes they do hold Jesus on a bacl burner so to speak as well, and as far as them listening to the WatchTower, it is a mistake that blinds them from all the truths that are in the word... so we agree that though many are lost because they promote falsehoods of Christ, not all will burn. Now to the next thing... as a Child of God, you most remember you have to curtail some of your fleshly notions and actions for the sake of the name of Christ our Lord... Like this >>>> Pat, I hope you are reading this you dumb jerk .... That does the justice of Christ through His servants... little to no value... so while on this board please try to refrain from such things... I know we all do it from time to time, buyt we all have our brothers ansd sisters to point out our short comings as well, another words... not getting onto you... just doing my part as part of the church pointing out things the church can do without Bless your soul
pateaton
Unregistered User
(6/17/02 7:49 pm) Reply
Re - JWs
Mary
Don't get mad at me, I'm just as much of a Jesus-ite as you are. It's just that we see some things a litle differently.
He once said "I am the way..." Most of Christendom (other churches) seem to think he is the Way to Himself! But He goes on to say, "No one can come to the Father except by Me."
So He is the way to Jehovah who is the Father.
This same Jesus emphasized the scripture
You are to worship Jehovah your God, and He is the only One you are to serve.
Down at the Hall, we observe this commandment.
Dear Warrior We seem to differ on the question of Salvation. You and most others in the churches seem to think one has to - 'hit the saw-dust trail', say the sinner's prayer, shake the preacher's hand, join the church, and 'Bingo', you got it made for all eternity.
Yes, publicly acknowledging Christ as one's Lord and Saviour will do wonderful things to ensure salvation, but what about non-believers?
We believe they will be saved too!
John the Baptist testified of Jesus; "Look, here is the Lamb of God who will take away the sins of the 'whole world'."
Also;
"...We have seen and bear witness that the Father has sent forth his Son as the Savior of the world." (1John 4:14)
So it looks like nearly everyone who has ever lived will be saved.
But would this include unbelievers? We believe it would, for since God is no respector of persons, this scripture applies to both Jew and Gentile.
" Ro 11:32 For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show mercy on them all."
Which leaves Paul in a state of wonderment and praise at the mysterious wisdom of God.
But this concept comes short of 'Universal Reconciliation' where even the Devil gets saved! This, apparently, does not apply to believers who fall away from the faith. (Heb 10.26; 2Pet 2.21)
Re: Re - JWs
First off the official watchtower stand is not that "all" will be saved... by far... second off the word makes it clear some will burn in hell... I know know that might be hard to come to grips with... for some, they don't agree with somethings in the word so they go into denial... second you try to take away Judgment Day... also it also says.
KJV John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Now you posted... No one can come to the Father except by Me."
And it is true too, Because they are the one and same in three spirits, yet one... the trinity. So you were half right... No one comes to Jesus unless by the Father and no one comes to Father but by Jesus Christ... for they are one and the same.
you wrote: Dear Warrior We seem to differ on the question of Salvation. You and most others in the churches seem to think one has to - 'hit the saw-dust trail', say the sinner's prayer, shake the preacher's hand, join the church, and 'Bingo', you got it made for all eternity.
(Heh... you don't know me very well at all.)
"...We have seen and bear witness that the Father has sent forth his Son as the Savior of the world." (1John 4:14)
So it looks like nearly everyone who has ever lived will be saved.
But would this include unbelievers? We believe it would, for since God is no respector of persons, this scripture applies to both Jew and Gentile.
(That doesn't mean everyone will accept the price paid for thier sin, and in fact here is just one that shows He paid for the false prophets sins as well. But because of their rejection of Him, they are doomed to hell.)
KJV 2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
(Clearly showing some are doomed.)
KJV Mathew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(As does that.And this.)
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV Mathew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mathew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mathew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
These and many more verses showing hell to be very real and many will burn in it. God isn't our little science project to mold into what we think He should be, some don't like then verses so they try to twisted them or add to them, denial is the word for it. Jesus preached more on hell then any other man in the bible... by the way. He lied huh?
You write: " Ro 11:32 For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show mercy on them all."
Thats about the Israel... those truly of the 12 tribes of Jacob. All Israel is saved, thats not about Satan or the none believing "non jews" but about the jews alone.
But this concept comes short of 'Universal Reconciliation' where even the Devil gets saved! This, apparently, does not apply to believers who fall away from the faith. (Heb 10.26; 2Pet 2.21)
Again the word makes it clear the fate of Satan and those that have heard the good news of Christ's atonement for thier sins... VERY clear... so your belief is not bible based... NOR is it Kingdom Hall based... NOT by their doctrine it is... If you don't know your own doctrine you should either learn it or drop it.
Re: Re - JWs
hhhhmmmm seems no replie is forthcoming... perhaps another JW can answer these things... and other things... they are, like in the debate room very hard to "pin down" and debate with...
pateaton
Unregistered User
(6/26/02 1:19 pm) Reply
Re- J.W.s
You write: " Ro 11:32 For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show mercy on them all."
Thats about the Israel... those truly of the 12 tribes of Jacob. All Israel is saved, thats not about Satan or the none believing "non jews" but about the jews alone.
Beg to differ on this point Warrior. Because Scripture teaches us that God makes no distinction of what kind of a person you are, but will judge everyone on the same base - regardless of race or one's upbringing.
There will be a distinction of 'first fruits' - those chosen to believe the Good News.
About near universal salvation, the 'Book of Knowledge' teaches us that billions will be raised in the resurrection to enjoy an eternal life of peace in a Paradise on this earth. The exceptions will be those who did believe and had a chance to be the 'first fuits' but rejected it. As Peter once wrote,
'It would have been better for them if they had never heard the truth.'
But those who died without knowing about Jehovah and His Love or those billions 'shut up in disobedience..' will know God's mercy.
Remember how Jesus once said
'My Father is much greater than I am'.
So how can they be the same?? Or as the catechism puts it - 'Co-equal'??
Re: Re- J.W.s
Wrong Wrong Wrong bro... Its about Israel, that whole chapter is...
Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(See he is showing you who he is talking about, as he did in the chapter beforehand, you cant take things out of context, read chapters 10 and 11 in full.)
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
(Again there, He is showing you who he is talking about, Israel. This is a old calvinist ploy to, but talking about chapter 9. You have to get away from mans teachings and read the bible in full... not one liner verses... )
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
(Again very clear its ISRAEL he is talking about, jews )
universal salvation is not biblical by any means and JW Hall and the watchtower don't adhear to it either... its one of the only things they got right!
Mathew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Mathew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
marydont Registered User
Posts: 3
(6/28/02 1:02 pm) Reply
Re - JWs
Good post Warrior,
There's nothing she can say against that one. So don't expect to hear from her real soon, I think you have shut her up for good. And good riddance too. All she can do is mouth off all that garbbage theyve been shoving down her throat.
Although fair play, I think she wants to come out but hasn't got the guts because she'll loose all her friends.
Hell, (I mean heaven heh heh) what does she think we are? We are all friends arent we? I got Christian friends all over the net, Ive got to know some of them real good.
and I did a stint with the J.Ws some years ago. I know the score about them
Maybe she'll write, but don't hold your breth, you havent left her anything to say - that will make any sense.
Re: Re - JWs
Well she has a right to give her doctrines side of it, but like I say this is where the always break off at... thing is I have only just begun to ask questions... they wont sit down in the real world and answer them either... they JUST say your there to divide and cause troubles... I dont see how asking questions about ones church group is asking for troubles... I'm very polite in the matter... they just want you to shut up and believe what they tell you, the Kingdom Hall.
pateaton
Unregistered User
(7/12/02 10:06 pm) Reply
Re - JWs
Sorry to disappoint you Mary dear, but I haven't taken off for good. They keep me busy so I can't get here too often.
About your last post to me Warrior, It seems like you believe one has to be a Jew to be saved!
Our view is that Jehovah is not partial to the Jews. (see Acts 10.34). The scripture here is dealing with who does God like the best? Jews or Gentiles. Peter states to his own surprise, thee is no partiality with Jehovah.
If the scriptures are true that Jesus came to take away the sins of the whole world - not just the Jews and the Church. (John 1.29) And that He is the savior of the whole world - again, not just the Jews and those who believe on him: Joh 4:42 ; 1Jo 4:14 .
And if it is true as Paul seems to think, that with God, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile - (Ga 3:2 , then how can he be a savior of the whole world if in the end only Jews and believers are saved?
This si why we believe salvation is for everyone. I don't mean sinners will get away Scot free. There will be punishment and shame for many resulting in fiery torment for some, but then in the end God wilo wipe away all tears and the past sins will not come into mind, All will be forgiven and forgotton.
Re: Pat...
Cripers... where do you get that I said you had to be a jew to be saved... What I said is that those of Israel, that is to say the 12 tribes of Jacob, those that are truly jews by blood line, are saved... thats what that whole chapter is about. No where in my post did I ever state that only those of Israel will be saved, but that All Israel will be saved, well not I but the bible said it... in the post... how you came to the conclusion that I said "only Israel" is saved is beyond me, so you whole post was, as we say in deep Texas, all for "nawt"... or for the rest of the world... naught. Sorry you misunderstood me and wasted your valuable time.
Re: Re - J.W.s
Re: Are J.Ws Christians? 
Bless your soul 
, then how can he be a savior of the whole world if in the end only Jews and believers are saved?
Re: Re - JWs
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