HansGross
Unregistered User
(7/26/02 9:13 pm) Reply
Re- J.w.s
Hello Soldier Warrior, I wouldn't bother arguing with Pat.
There is no end to the arguments they put out. I know, I was in it my self. I started reading the Bible and saw the light. Wonderful what the word of God can do isn't it?
Show her this link instead. It will say more about the Organization than either of us could say, amd more convincingly too.
Re: Re- J.w.s
The intimidation the kingdom hall can put on someone is great, as I am sure you well know... I pray Pat and the others take a look at the url you provided
Re: Are J.Ws Christians?
I to am a Jehovah Witness
Quote:So, I must say that God never changes, so why does the beliefs of JWs change? Shouldn't your beliefs have been right from the moment God gave them to your founder?
I just want to let you know that we (JW's) have made mistakes but our religion has NEVER/WILL NEVER change.
Quote:I just want to let you know that we (JW's) have made mistakes but our religion has NEVER/WILL NEVER change.
Is it true that the Watchtower Society's prophecy that Armageddon will come before "the end of the generation of 1914" (You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth, pg. 154), is no longer taught as truth?
If so, then does that mean that this teaching of the Watchtower Society, which they have taught for decades, was a false teaching?
Since the Watchtower Society teaches that they are the "one channel that the Lord is using during the last days of this system of things" (Jehovah's Witnesses Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, pg. 626) and that the governing body is "the mouthpiece of Jehovah God", does this mean that God changed His mind about this particular teaching?
Is it possible that God could change His mind?
Has the Watchtower Society ever changed their mind before about a teaching that they once taught as the truth?
Is it true that the Watchtower Society once taught that Armageddon was going to occur in:
1914 - "The Time Is At Hand" - 1888 (1911 Ed.), pg 101; Zion's WT - 1/15/1892, pg 22
1918 - "The Finished Mystery" - 1917, pg. 62, 485
1925 - "Millions Now Living Will Never Die", 1920, pg 89-90; WT, 7/15/24, pg 211
During WW II - WT, 9/15/41, pg 288
1975 - KM, 6/69, pg 3; AWAKE!, 10/8/68, etc.
Before the end of the generation of 1914 - Live Forever book, pg 154; AWAKE!, 10/8/95, pg 4?
Since the Watchtower Society claimed that their teaching of Armageddon coming before the "end of the generation of 1914" was "Jehovah's prophetic word" (WT-5/15/84, pg.6) and "the Creator's promise" (Awake!, 10/8/95, 9/22/95, 9/8/95, etc. pg.4), therefore speaking "in the name of Jehovah" (Deut 18:22, NWT), then according to Deut 18:20-22, does this mean that the Watchtower Society is a false prophet?
If so, are you aware of what the Bible says about false prophets? See Mt 7:15, 24:11, Mk 13:22, 2Pet 2:1, 1Jn 4:1, Rev 19:20, 20:10.
So you said, 'will never change'. I suggest you do change away from your false religion before it is too late.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
Re: Are J.Ws Christians?
Is it true that the Watchtower Society once taught:
- Against vaccinations? - Golden Age, Feb 4, 1931, pg. 293
Golden Age, Jan 5, 1929, pg. 502
- Against organ transplants? - Watchtower, 11/15/67, pg. 702
- That it was okay to celebrate Christmas and birthdays?
- That Christ is the almighty of Rev 1:8? - The Finished Mystery, 1917, pg. 15
- That Christ established a "Church"? - The Finished Mystery, 1917, pg 17
- That Christ returned invisibly in 1874? - The Finished Mystery, 1917, pg. 54, 60, 68
- That the Holy Spirit has a personality? - The Finished Mystery, 1917, pg 57
- That the pyramid of Gizah was God's witness and was used to predict the year of Armageddon? - The Finished Mystery, 1917, pg. 60
- That Armageddon would definitely occur in the spring of 1918? - The Finished Mystery 1917, pg 62
- That Christ was crucified? - The Finished Mystery, 1917, pg. 68
- That Leviathan of the Bible refers to the steam locomotive? - The Finished Mystery, 1917, pg 85
- That Michael is the Pope of Rome and his angels are the Catholic bishops? - The Finished Mystery, 1917, pg 188
According to "current" WTS teachings, Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and in 1918 he chose the WTS as His earthly organization because they were the only organization teaching "the truth". If this was so, then Jesus would have known the teachings of the WTS as put forth in The Finished Mystery published in 1917. Do you really think that Jesus would have chosen an organization which taught so many things that were not correct and are no longer taught as "the truth"?
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
Re: Are J.Ws Christians?
Since the WTS currently rejects most of the teachings of its founder, Charles Taze Russell (who was president of the organization from 1879-1916), and since they also reject "judge" Joseph Franklin Rutherford, who succeeded Russell as president from 1916-1942, how can you be sure that in 25 more years, the WTS won't reject the current president, Milton Henschel (1992-present), as they did Russell and Rutherford? What kind of confidence can you have in an organization that rejected its founder and first two presidents for the first 63 years of its existence - over 50% of the time they have existed?!
And yet, you claim they have never changed. HA HA HA
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
Re: Are J.Ws Christians?
- Against vaccinations? WE ARE AGAINST BLOOD WHICH SAYS IN THE BIBLE TO NOT EAT IT.
- Against organ transplants? LIKE THE PREVIOUS QUESTION...IF YOU NEED BLOOD WITH IT THEN WE ARE AGAINST IT.
- That it was okay to celebrate Christmas and birthdays? NEVER
- That Christ is the almighty of Rev 1:8? I'll quote that for you..."I am the Alpha and Omega says JEHOVAH GOD, the one who is and who was and who is coming, the ALMIGHTY."
- That Christ established a "Church"? ITS CALLED KINGDOM HALL DUH!
- That Christ returned invisibly in 1874? YEA RIGHT
- That the Holy Spirit has a personality? DONT THINK SOOOO
- That the pyramid of Gizah was God's witness and was used to predict the year of Armageddon? WHY WOULD A PYRAMID BE GODS WITNESS?
- That Armageddon would definitely occur in the spring of 1918? NOPPERS
- That Christ was crucified? HE WAS PUT ON A STAKE
- That Leviathan of the Bible refers to the steam locomotive? Isa 27:1: "In that day Jehovah, with his hard and great and strong sword, will turn his attention to Leviathan, THE GLIDING SERPENT, even to Leviathan, the crooked serpent, and he will certainly kill the sea monster that is in the sea."
- That Michael is the Pope of Rome and his angels are the Catholic bishops? Michael is Jesus and his angels are his angels
Re: Are J.Ws Christians?
From "The Finished Mystery" by Joseph F. Rutherford, JW president
pages 84, 85 ...."Job also describes the steam engine stationary, railway and marine. The following is a corrected translation of Job 40:15 to 41:34, with comments thereon from the pen of one of Pastor Russell's followers: "Behold now one with great heat (the stationary steam engine), which l have made to be with thee; he will consume fodder (peat, wood, coal) as do cattle. Behold now his strength is in his loins (boiler plates), and his power is within the parts bent in a circle (boiler shell) of his belly. His tail (smoke stack-opposite the feeding end) will set upright like a cedar; the couplings of his leaping parts (connecting rods, pitmans) will be clamped together. His bones are tubes of copper; his solid bones .....
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
Re: Are J.Ws Christians?
Notes on the FINISHED MYSTERY (1917)
by Joseph F. Rutherford, JW president
After Russell's death in 1916, Joseph F. Rutherford became president of the Society. In 1917 he published The Finished Mystery in which he made some bold predictions of his own regarding the years 1918 and 1920. These predictions also failed to materialize. However when a new edition of the book was published in 1926, the offending statements were modified so as to cover up the false prediction:
The Finished Mystery 1917 Edition
"Also in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches and the church members by millions it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of "Christianity."
"16:20. And every island fled away. Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920."
"And the mountains were not found. Every kingdom of the earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy." -page 485 (A-11)
"The three days in which Pharaoh's host pursued the Israelites into the wilderness represent the three years from 1917 to 1920 at which time all of Pharaoh's messengers will be swallowed up in the sea of angry humanity. The wheels will come off their chariots - organizations." -page 258
(A-11)
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
Re: Are J.Ws Christians?
Some may feel that the Society's time prophecy regarding 1914 must be correct since World War I broke out in that year. It would seem remarkable if an event such as World War I could be accurately predicted 39 years in advance. To consider the validity of this conclusion, we need to examine just what the Bible Students were predicting prior to 1914. In the book The Time Is At Hand, 1909 edition, page 77, 78 (See A10) Russell predicted these events to occur by or before the year 1914:
1. Kingdom of God to have full universal control of the earth.
2. Christ Jesus will overthrow all earthly governments.
3. Before end of 1914, last member of Body of Christ glorified in heaven.
4. Jerusalem (literal) will no longer be trodden down by gentiles.
5. Israel's blindness turned away; Jews become converted to Christ
6. "Time of trouble" to reach climax in world reign of anarchy.
7. God's Kingdom completely consumes power of worldly governments.
In the years preceding 1914, there was widespread fear of world war, which many felt was inevitable. Russell, however, did not expect war to break out in 1914.
Note this comment made in a Watchtower article in 1893:
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
Re: Are J.Ws Christians?
The year 1914 and the years immediately thereafter proved to be devastating to the Bible Students. They had expected to be in heaven ruling with Christ. Many of them left, their hopes dashed in bitter disappointment over the failure of their hopes to materialize. In the 1916 edition of the same book, Russell felt compelled to give the following explanation in the author's forward:
"The author acknowledges that in this book he presents the thought that the Lord's saints might expect to be with Him in glory at the end of the Gentile Times. This was a natural mistake to fall into, but the Lord overruled it for the blessing of His people. The thought that the Church would all be gathered to glory before October, 1914, certainly did have a very stimulating and sanctifying effect upon thousands, all of whom accordingly can praise the Lord -- even for the Mistake."
The confusion that they felt can be seen in a statement in the Watch Tower of September 1, 1916. After commenting on their disappointment that the harvest work was not over, but seemed to be continuing, he stated:
"In the meantime, our eyes of understanding should discern clearly the Battle of the Great Day of God Almighty now in progress; and our faith, guiding our eyes of understanding through the Word, should enable us to see the glorious outcome -- Messiah's Kingdom." -- Watch Tower, September 1, 1916, page 265
But history was once again to prove them wrong and it was necessary to "adjust." In this case "adjusting their understanding somewhat" meant transferring all the expectations for 1874 and 1878 to 1914 and 1919. After Russell's death in 1916, Joseph F. Rutherford became president of the Society. In 1917 he published The Finished Mystery in which he made some bold predictions of his own regarding the years 1918 and 1920. These predictions also failed to materialize. However when a new edition of the book was published in 1926, the offending statements were modified so as to cover up the false prediction:
The Finished Mystery 1917 Edition
"Also in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches and the church members by millions it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of "Christianity."
"16:20. And every island fled away. Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920."
"And the mountains were not found. Every kingdom of the earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy." -page 485 (A-11)
"The three days in which Pharaoh's host pursued the Israelites into the wilderness represent the three years from 1917 to 1920 at which time all of Pharaoh's messengers will be swallowed up in the sea of angry humanity. The wheels will come off their chariots - organizations." -page 258
CAN YOU SAY - FALSE PROPHET?
DUH!
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
Re: Are J.Ws Christians?
While saying "God has never been displeased," he never shares with us the Scriptures that would establish such a claim. It is hard to imagine that God would be pleased with a continual stream of misinformation, issued in his name and proclaimed to be "positive and indisputable," "established truth," and "God's dates, not man's."
It would be one thing if they were to present such speculations as possibilities, interesting topics for discussion and the like, to be considered or accepted at the option of the individual. But when "God's spirit directed organization" makes proclamations of "established truth" which he then "caused his angels to direct the preparation of exactly what was published," and which individuals are required to accept and believe on pain of expulsion, that is quite another matter.
The comment in the March 15, 1986 Watchtower shows that the Society is very sensitive to the accusation of being a false prophet. Any historical review of their organization is always highly edited to make it appear that any "mistakes" they may have made were always minor in nature. The book Reasoning From The Scriptures defines "false prophets" as "Individuals and organizations proclaiming messages that they attribute to a superhuman source but do not originate with the true God and are not in harmony with his revealed will." They then list the following six points: (page 132)
1. "True prophets make known their faith in Jesus, but more is required than claiming to speak in his name."
2. "True prophets speak in the name of God, but merely claiming to represent him is not enough." (Deut. 18:18-20) [It seems significant here that they stop their quote at verse 20; verses 21 and 22 are devastating to the Society's position]:
18 "A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you [Moses]; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. 19 And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him. 20 However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak 22 or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" 22 When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him." Deuteronomy 18:18-22 NIV
3. "Ability to perform "great signs," or "miracles," is not necessarily proof of a true prophet."
4. "What true prophets foretell comes to pass, but they may not understand just when or how it will be."
Prov. 4:18: "The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established."
"Nathan the prophet encouraged King David to go ahead with what was in his heart regarding the building of a house for Jehovah's worship. But later Jehovah told Nathan to inform David that he was not the one who would build it. Jehovah did not reject Nathan for what he had said earlier but continued to use him because he humbly corrected the matter when Jehovah made it plain to him."
These statements require comment. Proverbs 4:18 is regularly used to create the perception that it is normal to be constantly having "new truths" revealed through God's organization. That in fact is taken by witnesses as "proof" of God's favor. But a look at the context makes it quickly apparent that what is being discussed here is not progressive revelation of truth, but the outcome of life courses; the wicked one who stumbles in the gloom of wicked practices contrasted with the righteous one whose life reflects the light of God's ways. Even in the case of progressive revelation by God as with the things revealed about the Messiah, never was there any misinformation revealed, or prophecies that did not come true.
When Nathan first talked to David, it is obvious from the context that he did not do so as a prophet speaking an inspired prophecy. He merely assented with David's expressed desire to build a temple to Jehovah, something Nathan also desired. That very night Nathan received a word from Jehovah, which, speaking as a prophet, he conveyed to David.
5. "The pronouncements of a true prophet promote true worship and are in harmony with God's revealed will."
6. "True prophets and the false can be recognized by the fruitage manifest in their lives and in the lives of those who follow them."
"Have not Jehovah's Witnesses made errors in their teachings?" "Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets. They have made mistakes. Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations." -Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6
"The Scriptures provide time elements related to Christ's presence, and Jehovah's Witnesses have studied these with keen interest. Jesus also described a many-featured sign that would tie in with the fulfillment of time prophecies to identify the generation that would live to see the end of Satan's wicked system of things. Jehovah's Witnesses have pointed to evidence in fulfillment of this sign..... "
"Matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed have been relatively minor when compared with the vital Bible truths that they have discerned and publicized...."
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
Re: Are J.Ws Christians?
[quote]I would like to point out that the person that was behind all this was APOSTATE he was not a Jehovah Witness, he only proclaimed to be. [/quote]
JWs are not Christians, they only claim to be.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
Re: Are J.Ws Christians?
That it was okay to celebrate Christmas and birthdays? NEVER
Really?
1904 "Even though Christmas is not the real anniversary of our Lord's birth, but more properly the annunciation day or the date of his human begetting (Luke 1:2 , nevertheless, since the celebration of our Lord's birth is not a matter of divine appointment or injunction, but merely a tribute of respect to him, it is not necessary for us to quibble particularly about the date. We may as well join with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event on the day which the majority celebrate - "Christmas day."" (Watchtower, Dec. 1, 1904, p364)
1918 "In accordance with the resolution of Congress of April 2nd, and with the proclamation of the President of the United States of May 11, it is suggested that the Lord's people everywhere make May 30th a day of prayer and supplication. God was graciously pleased to cause this nation to be formed and to grow under the most favorable conditions in the world for the preservation of liberty, civil and religious. This is the land divinely `shadowed with wings' - overshadowed by the providential watchcare of God's Word - where God has lifted up an ensign on the mountain (kingdom), and where he has blown the trumpet message of the truth. ..." (Watchtower, Jan. 6, 1918, p174)
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
Re: Are J.Ws Christians?
Not quite...I'm just SICK TO DEATH of you putting our faith down! DO YOU SEE ME DOING THAT WITH YOURS?! ITS VERY AGGRAVATING AND RIGHT NOW I AM NOT IN THE MOOD TO DEAL WITH YOU AND YOUR INSULTS!!! Pattimo signing out.
Re- J.w.s
Re: Are J.Ws Christians? 
Re: Are J.Ws Christians? 
Re: Are J.Ws Christians? 
, nevertheless, since the celebration of our Lord's birth is not a matter of divine appointment or injunction, but merely a tribute of respect to him, it is not necessary for us to quibble particularly about the date. We may as well join with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event on the day which the majority celebrate - "Christmas day."" (Watchtower, Dec. 1, 1904, p364) 
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