Love is the fulfillment of the law. . . your trying to uphold the law, you think by your actions you attain salvation. . . this is a false teaching
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You are very correct in saying Love is the fulfilling of the law. Not lets look at what it means? Ok? Lets see if We love God.. we will do the following:
1. Have no other Gods Before Me
2. We will not worship any other Gods
3. We will not take the Lords name in Vain
4. We will keep the Sabbath Holy
Now if we love our fellow neighbours we will do the following:
1. We will honour our mother and father
2.We will not covet
3. We will not steal
4. We will not lie
5. We will not Kill
6. We will not commit adultery
Do you see how Love fulfills the law?
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
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That is correct..if we have broken one..it is the same as breaking all..we are in agreement there
Galatians 3
3:10
For all who are of the works of the law are under a curse: because it is said in the Writings, A curse is on everyone who does not keep on doing all the things which are ordered in the book of the law.
3:11
Now that no man gets righteousness by the law in the eyes of God, is clear; because, The upright will be living by faith.
3:12
And the law is not of faith; but, He who does them will have life by them.
Realize that verse 10 says...in "the book of the law" The ten commandments were not written in a book but on "tables of stone" Ex 31:18...A proper understanding of the difference between Gods Law (TC) Ceremonial Law and Moses Law is needed
Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
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Again Romans is in agreement with James 2:10
Same with Galatians 5:14
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days
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Notice the term sabbath days (plural) ..Again applying to the Cermonial sabbaths which were a shadow of things to come as they dealt with the sanctuary doctrine and the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Galations 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
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We are clearly not justified by keeping the law..we are justified by the grace of Jesus Christ and the blood which He shed upon the cross. The Bible clearly states " If ye love me, keep my commandments"
So as you can see a proper understanding of the Bible is needed. I suggest you read the Bible from cover to cover and ask for the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth.
Besides did you know that sin is the transgression of the law? Do away with the law and we have no sin! Are we living in a sinless world? Did you also know that the Bible says " To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there is NO light in them"! (isaiah 8:20)
KingJehu
Unregistered User
(10/26/02 5:07 pm) Reply
Re: Love Is. . . GOD! Not laws.
KJV 1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
And ONLY God fulfills the law, and Him being in us, fulfills that law for us. Through LOVE:
Quote:
You are very correct in saying Love is the fulfilling of the law. Not lets look at what it means? Ok? Lets see if We love God.. we will do the following: [end quote]
Then you list the commandments, but thats not true, and if you break them you do not love God, Yet King David and many others broke many of them, as you have as well, so that, by your words, means you don't love God, but I am sure you do. So that makes no sense.
There are 613 laws, do you follow them all? Do you follow the Day of Atonement rite? Because if you don't your guilty of breaking all the laws. EVERYONE!
Quote:That is correct..if we have broken one..it is the same as breaking all..we are in agreement there [end quote]
So you have broken all the laws, for only one did not break any. Jesus Christ Our Lord. We are to use the laws as a guide now, we are not under the law though, we are Christians, not Hebrews. That same law you follow is the Jewish Law, are you Jewish, not if in Christ, there is no more jew or gentile.
Quote: Realize that verse 10 says...in "the book of the law" The ten commandments were not written in a book but on "tables of stone" Ex 31:18...A proper understanding of the difference between Gods Law (TC) Ceremonial Law and Moses Law is needed [end quote]
Thats so silly I'm not going to even answer to it, other then the 10 commandments are part of the 613 laws, and they where copied onto scrolls and read out loud as the law in the temple and by Asahunt and a host of others. To say that the 10 commandments are not part of the 613 laws or part of the Jewish law, well, sorry but it just shows a lack of study on this on your part.
I note then that you skipped some verses I posted?
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days
"your explanation of this is way off as well, it is clear Paul is telling us not to let the jews, you or anyone judge us on what day or days we set aside to worship God."
Or of the sabbath [days],
or "sabbaths"; meaning the jubilee sabbath, which was one year in fifty; and the sabbath of the land, which was one year in seven; and the seventh day sabbath, and some copies read in the singular number, "or of the sabbath"; which were all peculiar to the Jews, were never binding on the Gentiles, and to which believers in Christ, be they who they will, are by no means obliged; nor ought they to observe them, the one any more than the other; and should they be imposed upon them, they ought to reject them; and should they be judged, censured, and condemned, for so doing, they ought not to mind it. It is the sense of the Jews themselves, that the Gentiles are not obliged to keep their sabbath; no, not the proselyte of the gate, or he that dwelt in any of their cities; for they say F7, that
``it is lawful for a proselyte of the gate to do work on the sabbath day for himself, as for an Israelite on a common feast day; R. Akiba says, as for all Israelite on a feast day; R. Jose says, it is lawful for a proselyte of the gate to do work on the sabbath day for himself, as for an Israelite on a common or week day:''
and this last is the received sense of the nation; nay, they assert that a Gentile that keeps a sabbath is guilty of death F8; (See Gill on Mark 2:27). Yea, they say F9, that
``if a Gentile sabbatizes, or keeps a sabbath, though on any of the days of the week, if he makes or appoints it as a sabbath for himself, he is guilty of the same.''
It is the general sense of that people, that the sabbath was peculiarly given to the children of Israel; and that the Gentiles, strangers, or others, were not punishable for the neglect and breach of it F11; that it is a special and an additional precept, which, with some others, were given them at Marah, over and above the seven commands, which the sons of Noah were only obliged to regard F12; and that the blessing and sanctifying of it were by the manna provided for that day; and that the passage in (Genesis 2:3) ; refers not to the then present time, but (dyteh le) , "to time to come", to the time of the manna F13. John Gill.
And we as Christians, have NO SIN.
1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1John 3:8-9 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
"Okay by that its clear, you can rewrite it, shape it and make it into what you want or you can take it for what it says. I have had people curse me and shun me because of that verse, and that's their choice... I will not however denie the words of God."
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
"Go back up and read what happens when we become PURE. But wait! what of what John wrote just before then?"
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
"Taken out of context? Kind of."
1 John 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
"To be clean of sin, is absent of it. Man is born of the flesh, and the flesh is sin, so all have sinned, no one is saying we all haven't, but once born into the spirit, you are reborn a new creature by the quickening of your spirit with Christ. Christ will not partake in sin."
Galations 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
"Christ will not partake in sin, a Christian is born anew into spirit, and that spirit is him. He is no longer of the flesh... He died on the cross with Christ."
2 Corinitains 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
"Paul put it this way"
Romans 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do... I allow not: -for what I would-, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
"There it is again!" It is no more I that do it! "The sin that dwelleth in me is the sins of the flesh, I'm reborn into spirit!"
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
"There it is again!" It is no more I that do it!
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
"So Paul is saying, the evil which I don't want to do, I keep doing! And the good that i wish to do, I don't do! Therefore its not really me doing bad things because God knows my heart and I dont want to do them, and the things which I wish to do and don't, thats the real me but sometimes this stupid flesh I'm trapped in won't let me do it!"
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
If Christ is your minister Father forbid sin to be in you, for Christ will not partake in sin. Therefore He gives us new life 'the quickening' in spirit, and a spirit free from sin."
Galations 5:16-18 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
"What the heck did that say!!! How dare the bible say something your preacher didn't teach you! Lets just cross all them verses out.
People God knows your heart, He knows you don't wish to do the things your flesh does, He is telling you, don't beat yourself up about them, you mess up, know your pure by the blood of Christ and get back to doing what you want to do... righteousness. You know HOW MANY people leave God because others drill in them that they sin all the time and everything they do is a sin, and they can never be righteous, yet God uses the term righteous man of God all the time... but thats another topic... though the same. So what burdens will you put on your fellow man, and how are you going to explain all them verses away, you can explain them away to yourself i'm sure, but I bet i beat ya in a debate on it... and look, heres comes some more..."
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
"Don't sell the blood of Christ as less then it's worth."
Romans 8:1-3 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Ezekiel 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. "There it is again! And thats the Hebrew."
John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
1 Peter 4:17-18 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
"Hhhmmmmm your a sinner... or your reborn into spirit and your flesh sins?"
there are many things I do that Jesus wouldn't do... but he took all my sin on the cross, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak... IF one doesn't want to smoke, but does, then it is not him doing it, HE doesn't want to, He wishes and prays he could stop... who would want to smoke... A Christian lives by the spirit not the flesh, it is the flesh that makes us do thinks, BUT the "quickening" made us alive in spirit... and clean from all sins, our flesh sins, but we are spirit
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
To some, because they where taught a few one liners from their respective ministers, pastors and reverends take it for granted that they continue to sin, but in fact Christ will have nothing to do with sin other then destroy it, that was his purpose, to wash all sin away, now thats not to say we don't transgress or that sin doesnt dwell in us, that is our flesh... but then again, we are not that flesh are we?
To say that a Christian sins, one would have to throw out many verses in the bible... many, there is no twisting of the veres, to make them say something else, its clear nor saying these verse are not in the greek or that its not what it means
Original Word
Word Origin aJmartiva from Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Hamartia 1:267,44
a. to be without a share in
b. to miss the mark
c. to err, be mistaken
d. to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
e. to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin
f. that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many
Your living by mans traditions, not Christ's, Christ law is written in the heart, Love God, and Love mankind, in doing this you have fulfilled all the law, as it is now, you trying to semi-live by the law, picking and choosing puts you under a curse, and you don't even observe all the sabbath day laws, you can't!
Blessin
FDNichol Registered User
Posts: 10
(10/27/02 8:44 am) Reply
Love Is... GOD! Not laws.
King Jehu, It is you who is showing poor scholarship here. Spreadthevision is right! Obedience to God is the proof of our love for God and man. It is not the basis of salvation, but its fruit. God's law defines what true love is. To relegate the Ten Commandments to the whole Law which Moses wrote is to ignore the difference of purpose and function as well as time and place. I dare you to present your reasoning at my forum. You can be sure you're not going to win. I am confident that spreadthevision can refute your answer very well. As for your position on no sin, that too is weighed and found wanting. Sin will be with us and in us until Jesus comes. Remember what the Apostle John stated in the past, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the TRUTH is not in us.... If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him ( God ) a liar and HIS WORD is not in us" - 1 John 1:8, 10. NASB ( Emphasis supplied ) We will always need cleansing until we are completely redeemed from our mortal, corruptible, and weak bodies on the day of the Lord. Until then, MARANATHA! Yours in the blessed hope, FDNichol
Re: Love Is... GOD! Not laws.
If we say we HAVE NOT sinned. . . NOT do sin, the word makes it clear we are free from sin, cleaned, and Christ will not partake of sin, and again there is no need for me to go to any other forum. . .
There is our room page, anytime I am on the web I can be found there, and in #Christiandebate on dalnet if you wish to debate me, its here or there. . . and I have provided you with all the scriptures that say OUT AND OUT, if you sin your of the devil! Now you can twisted it to say anything you want, but the truth still stands, and we are not under the old covent anymore. . . the old law and the commandments are part of the 613 laws handed down by Father, to the Hebrews. . . JESUS fulfilled that law, on the cross, with LOVE and His love is in all them that follow him, and that love fulfilled the law. . . your selling Christ and His atonement short. SDA need people to believe they are still under sin and under the law, to put money in the collection plate. . . And White was a lair and a fraud. . . but we will get to that part of your church history later. . .
The law and the Gospel are intimately connected. They are closely associated. If the divine law had never been transgressed, there would have been no need of the Gospel. Since the basis of God's government and authority is the immutable law, when this divine code was violated, a remedy for sin was essential. The saving grace of God is His only remedy. -F.C.Gilbert "Messiah in His Sanctuary" p. 20
Since the Cross of Jesus there has been one attack after another on the Law of God. Many churches that have started since then have even gone so far as to "Rewrite" the Ten Commandments to fit their fleshly desires. Kind of like, "Creating God in their own image." Case in point... The Catholic church has Omitted the second Commandment in their Catechism merely because they prefer statues. Then in order to fill the gap created, they moved the remaining up one notch and "split" the tenth Commandment in two. (SEE: St Joseph Catechism) Some churches claim Jesus abolished the Ten Commandments when He died on the cross, using Ephesians 2:15 as their basis of evidence. "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;..." The obvious here is that the verse states that it was the Commandments contained in ORDINANCES that was abolished at the cross. Not the Ten Commandments. Colossians 2:14-17 has also been said to prove the Commandments abolished. But if you read it you will find it was, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances", again. These ordinances were "added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made" Galatians 3:19 It's rather blunt here as to why the "Commandments contained in ordinances" were added. It also states they were only added TILL the seed should come. And who was this seed?... "And to thy seed, which is Christ" Galatian 3:16
The commandments contained in ordinances were added to prepare the people for the FIRST arrival of Messiah. They showed their faith in the coming Messiah by keeping the ordinances. And when Jesus died on the cross the ordinances were no longer needed because he fulfilled them all. But what are these ordinances? Colossians 2:14-17 says... "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." The "ordinances" were a series of laws that Moses penned to prepare the people for the "things to come". The "ordinaces" are no different than the ordinances of small towns and cities where they only apply up to city limits. The Ten Coommandments can be compared to the Constitution of the United States, and the ordinances are the local laws of the cities. Fact is, the word "ordinance" is NOT the same as the word "commandment" is it? Plus, did you notice that in verse 16 it states, "...Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink..." The word "therefore" denotes that it is speaking of the previous topic of the ordinances. So, I ask, WHERE in the TEN COMMANDMENTS does it speak of "meat and drink?" Nowhere! The ceremonial law talks volumes on meat and drink, but the Law of God does not. So, it is impossible that the "ordinances" and the commandments are the same thing. Also notice that noweher in the Ten Commandments do we see any mention of, "holydays or new moons" as this passage declares is PART of the "ordinances." The Old Testament people were just as much believers in Jesus as the New Testament people. The obvious difference is they looked FORWARD to Jesus coming the first time. We await His second coming today. All the "meat, drink, holy days, & sabbaths" were all abolished at the cross, because Jesus fulfilled their purpose perfectly. And by the way... the "sabbaths" mentioned here are not the weekly Sabbath of God Almighty. This passage calls these "sabbath days" (plural) as a "shadow of thngs to come." The weekly Sabbath (singular) of the Lord can in no way be a shadow of something future. The "shadowy" things appeared AFTER sin came into the world. It was a way to deliverence from sin. All the "shadowy things" pointed forward to the arrival of Jesus as Saviour to the cross as an offering for sin. It was AFTER sin started that the Lord declared these shadows were necessary. Fact is, the Sabbath was insituited IN EDEN before sin entered the world. Read Leviticus 23:24-38 and you will find that the sabbaths mentioned here are the "monthly sabbaths" that acknowledged certain events. Make special note that it even says in Verse 38 that these are BESIDES the Sabbaths of the Lord. Jesus said Himself... "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17 The simplest way I know to explain it is. The children of God were symbolically keeping the ordinances in the past looking forward to Jesus where He would actually become them in reality. (Notice the "sabbaths" of Leviticus...count them... )
Leviticus 23:23-38, "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, (sabbath #1 day #1) a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, (sabbath #2 day# 10) and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.(sabbath #3 day #9) And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD. On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.(sabbath #4 day #15) Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.(sabbath #5 day # These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD."
FIVE "sabbaths" that are defined as "feast days" of the Lord within a 15 day period, and that's BESIDES the weekly Sabbath of the Lord. The Lord is rather blunt here. He is listing 5 "sabbath days" that fall on certain "days of the 7th month" that will actually fall on different days of the week every year. And then He makes special note that we understand these to be BESIDES the Sabbath of the Lord in verse 38. And did you also notice the meat and drink offerings? This confirms that they are the same thing that is being spoken of in Colossians 2:14-17. Fact is, IF this "law contained in ordinances" is the same as the "Law contained in stone" then I ask for all those reading to share with me the commandment that is written within the Ten Commandments that speaks of "meat and drink" offerings as well. Biblical fact is...
Hebrews 9:1,10 "Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."
One more point must be stressed here. It stated this in Colossians 2:17, "...Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ" Let me ask you this, when I stand in front of a light source I cast a shadow correct? Now, if you find that shadow I cast and follow it you will eventually come to my body, correct? Does my shadow continue on behind me? No, it stops at the body does it not? All those feast days are shadows of things that Jesus did in reality, when you follow those shadows you will eventually come to a rest before the body of Jesus Christ on the cross. There is no shadow beyond the cross. the "ordinances" were nailed to that cross. He did EXACTLY as those shadows depicted He was to do.
So... what did Jesus Himself think of the Royal Law of God His Father? "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." John 15:10 Some hold to their beliefs because this was said by Jesus BEFORE the cross. So what did the Apostles believe AFTER Jesus died and resurrected? Did they keep the Ten Commandments, and what was their example to us? 1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For the sake of space I'll refrain from typing numerous verses that prove the early Christian church indeed KEPT the Ten Commandments in loving obedience to their Heavenly Father. And yes I know it's impossible for us to keep the Ten Commandments, for the flesh is weak. That's my ENTIRE point! We have proven to God that we cannot keep the Ten commandments in our fleshly bodies. That is one of the many reasons why Jesus died for us. We're too weak to do it alone, we NEED Him.
Hebrews 8:10 ...I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts
Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Romans 8:3,4 ...God sending his own Son... That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
We can't do it without the soul steering help of Jesus. Jesus walked as we should have walked, and then He died the death we deserve for our sins. He did it ALL for us, and He is STILL doing it today. For He also said, ... "lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20
More than a few have even claimed that Commandment keeping is for the Jew and Jew alone. In saying this they un-kowingly condemn all non-Jewish Christians to hell in one fell swoop. This is evident because of what has been written in the book of Revelation for all Christians who trust His Word to read..."Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14 That city IS HEAVEN. If only Jews are to keep the Commandments, then only Jews enter Heaven? Note the following chart, it unveils ALL TEN Commandments can be found in the Old and New Testament.
How's it possible to say we need not keep the Ten Commandments when it's found in BOTH Testaments? How's it possible for some to preach it's SIN to keep God's Ten Commandments? This is a dangerous statement in risk of judgment. For the Word puts it plain that we, "hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil" Ecclesiastes 12:13,14 "So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty" James 2:12 According to these faithful verses, the Ten Commandments are not only the "Whole duty of man," but the standard of JUDGMENT used to determine our worthiness of Heaven. "And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it ." IIJohn1:6
Question: "What are the differences between God's Law contained in stone and Moses' law contained in ordinances?"
MOSES' LAW "Contained in Ordinances" GOD'S LAW "Contained in stone"
Called "Law of Moses" Luke 2:22 Called "The law of the Lord" Isaiah 5:24
Called "Law contained in ordinances" Ephesians 2:15 Called "The royal law" James 2:8
Written by Moses in a book. 2Chronicals 35:12 Written by God in stone. Exodus 31:18; 32:16
Placed beside the Ark. Deuteronomy 31:26 Placed inside the ark. Exodus 40:20
Ended at the cross. Ephesians 2:15 Will stand forever. Luke 16:17
Added because of sin. Galatians 3:19 Points out sin. Romans 7:7; 3:20
Contrary to us, against us. Colossians 2:14-16 Not grievous. 1John 5:3
Carnal. Hebrews 7:16 Spiritual. Romans 7:14
Made nothing perfect. Hebrews 7:19 Perfect. Psalm 19:7
Judges no one. Colossians 2:14-16 Judges all people. James 2:10-12
Ever notice the similarities of the early church "human nature" just like we see today? Did not the early church look to abolish the Law of God simply because they claimed to be Christians?
Romans 6:15, "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."
Yes it appears Paul had to deal with "OUR TYPE" of theology back then as well.
So... why do we need a new covenant / testament?
Hebrews 8:7-9, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord."
Please understand that a "covenant" is no different than a "testament" according to Strong's # 1242...
1) a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to
be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly
possessions after his death, a testament or will
2) a compact, a covenant, a testament
2a) God's covenant with Noah, etc
Understand that he Lord God did not change His part of the arrangement / covenant / testament with the people of Israel. Scriptures declare it was "finding fault with them, " that lead to the need of a "new covenant." The Lord's agreement in the beginning never changed. He still declared all His blessings on those that would keep His Laws. Their part of the arrangement was simply to KEEP His laws to receive the blessings He had planned for them.
Exodus 19:5-6, "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."
And as we know, when Moses returned 40 days later, they had already broken that covenant they said they would keep in verse #8. The Law of God never changed since then. His "part of the arrangement" remains the same. Our part had to change because we are the ones that "had fault." The Lord made no error, the people did. A new covenant is needed. But how will the Lord do it?
Hebrews 8:6, "But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."
Fact is people, we NEED this better covenant and better promises because we have no more strength than the Jewish people of their day. Think about that. Think about how they had an open physical sign of the Almighty's presence on a daily basis in the desert for forty years. And still they broke His laws. Now look at today when there are no apparent "columns of smoke" declaring His presence to boost our faith. So, since we are no stronger, and in fact in many ways weaker than they, HOW is He going to help us?
The Old Covenant was an arrangement between God and His people.
The New Covenant is an arrangement between God and Jesus Christ
THAT'S THE BETTER COVENANT! It is no longer between us and God, it is between Jesus and His Father. The Lord didn't re-write His laws or His "arrangement" between man and Himself. It's just that Jesus came to do what WE COULD NOT DO! He kept the covenant with His Father FOR US as a man. And here's your Biblical proof...
Hebrews 8:10, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"
That's the covenant that He has made with us. It is a better covenant because He has placed His laws in our minds and wrote them in our hearts! Ever notice this... ?
Isaiah 8:16, "Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples."
Where's the SEAL placed? Did He not say that He will be our God and we will be His people and He will put His law in our MINDS? Did you catch that? The SEAL... the MIND?
Romans 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith..."
My point is this, the Scripture uses the words, sign, seal, mark interchangeably. Fact is, the Mark of the Beast is a SEAL on the forehead / mind is it not? It's a sign of allegiance to the devil is it not? Just as the seal of God that is placed in the foreheads of His children in Revelation 7:3 is a sign of their allegiance to God.
Look at the children of Israel when the Lord was sending an angel of death among them. He told them that the first born of every household will die unless they kill a lamb and place it's blood upon the doorposts of their home. When the angel arrives he will "Passover" every house that has blood on the doorposts.
Now, let me ask you this. Did the blood on the doorposts save them? No, but let me ask you, was their serious consequences if they chose NOT to put the blood there? YES! The first born would die!. Many say, "It doesn't make a single bit of difference if I keep His commandments or not" I say unto you, yes it does! It certainly won't save you if you keep them, but there are serious consequences if you don't.
Exodus 12:13, "And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt."
That "sign" "token" "mark" or "seal" is actually WRITTEN IN BLOOD! The blood of the Lamb. The one who walked as we should have walked. He did it for us, and sealed it with His very own blood on the cross.
Galatians 3:29, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Ephesians 2:12, "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"
Remember when He said, "I WILL BE YOUR GOD, AND YOU WILL BE MY PEOPLE" in Hebrews 8:10? Now when you come to Christ you enter into that covenant with Him. He sealed it on the cross with His blood to prevent any change being made to it. And it will NEVER change!
Luke 16:17, "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."
THE SEAL OF GOD IS HIS LAW. SEE THIS...
"Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God."
Ezekiel 20:12,20
The Sabbath is just as much a SIGN, SEAL or MARK of God as the blood on the doorposts of old. It is a PROOF that you ARE His child, and He IS your God. Anyone, and almost ALL "Christians" of today keep 9 of the Ten Commandments. But only those that PROVE they are children of God are those that keep His Sabbaths. For the Sabbath truly is a SIGN, MARK, and SEAL of the living God that He is your God, and you are His people. For ALL the Bible facts about the Sabbath, click here. That's what makes the Sabbath important. It proves to the world AND the Lord that you are HIS.
Exodus 31:13, "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you."
This passage does not say it is a sign between me and you UNTIL JESUS DIES ON THE CROSS. It says THROUGHOUT your generations.
Have you ever signed a document to validate or confirm that it is authentic? Have you ever given your "seal of approval" on something? Have you ever "marked" an item of yours as proof of ownership? In government, this is a fact of life. As we know, signing a document actually authenticates that document. An official seal or signature always has three distinct features:
(1) The name of the official
(2) The title
(3) The territory
So when the President of the United States signs a bill into law, he will sign it, 1.Name “George Bush” 2.Title “President” 3.Territory “of the United States of America” EVERY document must be signed or sealed in this manner for it to be an official legal document.
There is a government in heaven,(Isaiah 9:6) and God’s legal document is His Law, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS! Look in the midst of the Commandments and you'll find the Seal of God! "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, ...." Exodus 20:11
(1) HIS NAME = THE LORD (“I am the Lord: that is my name”Isaiah 42:
(2) HIS TITLE = CREATOR (Notice, “the LORD made” in above verse)
(3) HIS TERRITORY = HEAVEN AND EARTH (Notice, “Heaven and earth” in above verse)
Without getting into too much detail, one can see that the "seal" or "Sabbath" of God is actually an "image" of His authority as Creator. When we keep His Sabbath we are expressing that we recognize and worship Him as our Creator. Everyone I come across agrees that the Jews kept the Sabbath in the Old Testament. Everyone I come across also agrees 100% that Jesus kept the Sabbath as well. I have a question then. What about AFTER Jesus? If the covenant was going to be changed it would have to be changed BEFORE Jesus died. But it is impossible to change a "testament" or a "covenant" or a "last will and testament" AFTER the Testator dies! Did Jesus ever change the Sabbath to the first day of the week BEFORE He died? There is not a single verse in the Old or New testament before or after Jesus that declares the Sabbath was changed. Not one. Fact is, law demands perfection. Whether it be God's law or man's law makes no difference. All law demands perfection in following it.
Matthew 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
How can I be perfect?
Hebrews 5:9, "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
How was Jesus "perfected?" What does this mean? It means He lived a life in perfect obedience to God's law. I challenge everyone reading this to show me one verse where Jesus broke the Law of God. You may as well not waste your time, there is no such verse. Not a one. So... why was Jesus to be perfected? Was there a reason for this?
Colossians 1:28, "Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:"
We are imperfect. No matter how hard we try we cannot keep the law. This has been proven in Scriptures, and this has been proven in reality. Yet, Jesus did walk perfectly. And if we have Him as Saviour, so shall we. Jesus kept the law in perfection for ME. Jesus kept the law of God in perfection for YOU as well. And since He is IN us now, will He do no less? In a nutshell...?
Romans 5:18-19, "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
One thin must be realized here. It was prophecied that Jesus was on a mission when He came here. He was on a mission prophecied in Isaiah 42:21. The Word tell sus that Jesus was to come and, "...he will magnify the law, and make it honourable."
How much more study and proof from the Bible do you need? (sorry took me a bit, I been so busy lately)
RE: Love is..God! Not Laws
Part 2 Rebuttals Rebutted...
Rebuttal #1: THE TEN COMMANDMENTS WERE MADE FOR THE JEWS
Biblical facts...
Genesis 4:7, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."
The definition of SIN = 1 John 3:4, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
So when the Almighty spoke of sin unto Cain in Genesis 4, he was speaking of the Ten Commandments more than 2000 YEARS before a Jew was born.
Genesis 26:5, "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."
Again we see the Almighty speaking of His Commandments HUNDREDS OF YEARS before Jews ever step on the planet.
Genesis 39:9, "There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?"
NOTICE THE WORD SIN? This is way before any Jewish people were ever born! Plus, how would Joseph know that adultery was a sin unless he understood the definition of sin is as we know it? And how do we understand that definition? 1 John 3:4, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
Exodus 15:26, "And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee."
For those that say the Ten Commandments were ONLY given to the Jews, here we see that BEFORE the Tablets which contained the Ten Commandments were carved, the Law was already there!
Exodus 16:28, "And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?"
Ditto.
Rebuttal #2 THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE FOR JEWS ALONE
Biblical facts...
Jeremiah 31:31, "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"
Fact is, according to this verse, they are correct. HOWEVER, who is Israel?
Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
When was this prophetic statement fulfilled with 100% accuracy?
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Romans 2:28,29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Rebuttal #3: JESUS CAME TO FULFILL THE LAW/COMMANDMENTS
Biblical facts...
Matthew 5:17, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
This actually has to be one of the easiest one to expose as error. Some go so far as to define the word, "fulfill" to mean "done away with." So, lets see if that makes sense shall we? Let's re-word that verse to their liking... "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to do away with it" Rather obviously wrong is it not? In fact, it's actually rather a stupid statement. Ever notice how everyone seems to have no problem acknowledging 9 of the 10 commandments? But when it comes to the one and only commandment that the Almighty specifically states to "REMEMBER" it's this one they forget? Do you realize that there is a reason for this?
So... what does this word "fulfill" mean in this verse?
4137 pleroo {play-ro'-o}
from 4134; TDNT - 6:286,867; v
AV - fulfil 51, fill 19, be full 7, complete 2, end 2, misc 9; 90
Ntoce the word fulfill used in another verse by Jesus...
Matthew 3:15, "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him."
According to their theology of defining "fulfill = done away with" then Jesus wanted baptism to DO AWAY WITH RIGHTEOUSNESS. Ridiculous isn't it? Jesus come to John to be baptized by him. As the Word declares, John wants to be baptized by Jesus instead. Yet Jesus wants him to go ahead an baptize Him anyway so that He can FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS! Jesus came to magnify the Law. He came to fulfill it. He came to make it real unto us. PLus, what of this passage...
Matthew 5:18, "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
With understanding of the REAL meaning of the word "fulfill" here, what is this verse saying? Not one jot or tittle of the Law will NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW until ALL is fulfilled. Shall we refrase it the way the World preaches it? This verse especially makes them out to be bold face liars. This is how THEY preach it...
THEY SAY... "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be DONE AWAY WITH."
Again, it really comes off as a rather stupid comeback. The Scriptures openly expose them with such ease it's rather laughable at this point is it not? I mean come on already... they are saying that NOT ONE JOT OR TITTLE WILL PASS AWAY UNTIL ALL IS DONE AWAY? ? ? ? ?
Summing it up. The main purpose for the walk of Jesus Christ?
Romans 8:3-10, "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
Rebuttal #4: THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ARE NO LONGER NEEDED
Biblical facts...
Exodus 32:15, "And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written."
Have you ever had a contractual agreement with someone? Have you ever signed a LEASE with a landlord? Do you AND the Landlord keep a copy of the lease after agreement is acknowledged by both parties?Do you recall how the people of old said the following words as "agreement" unto the Commandments of the Lord?
Exodus 19:8, "And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD."
What happened immediately after they made this statement? Moses goes up to the mountain to get the Commandments written in stone by the Almighty. By the time he returns the people of Israel have broken ALL TEN of the Commandments! So, how does the Almighty remedy this situation? Does He hatefully EVICT all of the Human race out of existence? Or does He lovingly give us another chance to KEEP THE CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT with Him?
Hebrews 8:6, "But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."
The better covenant, and the better promises are these...
Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;"
2 Corinthians 3:3, "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart."
Philippians 4:13, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."
In the Old Covenant, we have man making a promise with God Almighty, and God Almighty making a promise with man. It was a CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT between man and God. But it was broken wasn't it? And not only was it broken. His Word records the fact that the Almighty is aware of the broken agreement.
Hebrews 8:7, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."
His Word is indeed proclaiming fault in the "first" or "Old" Covenant here is He not? But WHO was at fault in the Old Covenant? WHO BROKE IT? Did the Almighty break His covenant with Israel? Or did Israel break it with Him?
Hebrews 8:8, "For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"
Mankind broke His covenant. They proved that man could NOT keep the Laws of God. So, did the Almighty decide to ABOLISH His Law altogether so as to allow for His children to attain Heaven? If that is so, then the Law of God would be AGAINST or CONTRARY to the promises He made in the first place. Is this the case?
Galatians 3:21, "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law."
In other words, the Law is NOT against His promises. Plus we also see another blessed Truth surfacing in this passage. So many believe that because "we" keep the Ten Commandments we feel that doing so SAVES US. Well, if the Law was "salvation" instead of the loving Sacrifice of the Lamb of God in the person Jesus Christ, then it would have been made aware in the Word that to keep the Law would have saved you. Or as Paul puts it, "verily righteousness should have been by the law."
The "better covenant" was needed. The old Covenant was based on the keeping of the promises of man and their God. The Almighty kept His side of the bargain, mankind messed up. And still, this Almighty Father decides to actually make it VERY easy for us now to KEEP THAT PROMISE we should have kept long ago...
2 John 1:6, "And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it."
1 John 5:3, "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."
Not only is the Law of God the very same commandments, "That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in." But thanks to Jesus Christ we "can do all things" because He helps us. And keeping the promise made long ago is now much easier. He took the Ten Commandments that were in the temple of the Lord inside the ark, and placed them in our "temples." Is it not written that we ARE the temple of the Lord? And is it not also written that He has placed this law on the "fleshy tables of the heart"? And is not the "ark" in the MIDST of the TEMPLE of the Lord?
Kinda makes it easier to see WHY the Temple veil r-r-r-r-ripped now doesn't it?
It used to be that Israel said, "We will do all that the lord has said." But now it is reality that JESUS will do it for us INSIDE US! That's why it's so easy to keep His Law now. In fact, it's "not grievous" to keep them because we are governed by His Love. And our LOVING obedience to Him as our Father makes it oh so aware to us as it does the Angels that to kill, lie, steal, etc is just plain WRONG and not right to do. We actually choose not to do that simply because we know it's wrong. Think about that. Did the Almighty have to keep track of the Angels before sin arrived in Heaven? Did He have to constantly remind the two thirds that DIDN'T fall for the lies of Lucifer that it was wrong to do? NO! They KNEW it was wrong and chose not to do it.
By the way... for all you Preachers out there that preach in prisons. Go ahead, tell those convicted murderers they no longer need the Law. I wonder...what Law will they be thinking about breaking? Do you suppose you will live through it?
Rebuttal #5: THE NEW COVENANT IS LOVE
Biblical facts...
James 2:8, "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:"
Correct! But to walk IN THAT LOVE you must at first be KEEPING THAT LAW. Keeping the Law of God is actually open evidence that you DO love your neighbor. In fact, Jesus summerized the LAST SIX commandments like this...
John 13:34, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."
Look at the last six commandments and see it is our relationship WITH EACH OTHER. To keep those commandments proves you LOVE your neigbor. Would you show love to your neighbor if you steal from him? Kill him? Steal from him? Etc...
So, I agree, the New Covenant is indeed based on love. But to truly love each other we must keep the ten commandments. And by the way, this also coincides with the first four commandments as well. How so...?
Matthew 22:37-38, "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment."
Is this something that can be verified as an Old Covenant promise He desired of us?
Deuteronomy 6:5, "And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."
Deuteronomy 11:13, "And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,"
Joshua 22:5, "But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul."
It says.. Heart? Mind?
Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;"
Want the entire Decalogue (Ten Commandments) summerized in ONE NEW TESTAMENT VERSE?
Luke 10:27, "And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself."
The REAL definition of love ... John 14:15, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
How do we as humans show love to our fellow man? Is it showing love if we do these things to our fellow man? Do you show love when you don't honor your mother or father? Do you show love when you kill your fellow man? Do you show love when you commit adultery against your spouse? Do you show love when you steal from your fellow man? Do you show love when you bear false witness against your fellow man? Do you show love when you covet your neighbors wife or anything else that belongs to Him?
If you as a Christian realize that in order to show love for your fellow man, you must keep all of the last six commandments that Jesus summarized as the "second commandment" in Matthew 22:39. Can you not also see as a Christian that to show love unto God is to keep the first four commandments that Jesus summarized in Matthew 22:37,38?
Matthew 22:37-40, "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
So, I ask you. Do you show love for the Lord when you place another god before Him? Do you show love for the Lord when you bow down before an image? Do you show love for the Lord when you take His name in vain? Do you really love Him when you break His Sabbath that He speciafically said was the seventh day, and He specifically said to REMEMBER it? Why is it we can so easily show love for each other. But for He who made us we share no love?
The REAL Christian will not only keep all ten of the commandments. The REAL Christian will go beyond them because of their love for Jesus! Case in point, Jesus said in Matthew 5:40-41, "And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain." Love always gives more than is required without looking upon it as a burden. It's not as if Jesus is COMMANDING we love each other, it's more like He is stating we WILL love our fellow man more than the norm simply because HIS love will be apparent within us. The true Christian will go the extra mile simply because their love compels them to do so. And they do so with a joyful heart. They don't grumble while going the extra mile simply because tyey feel their fellow man needs them to, and in Christian love they are compelled to show love. We should go far beyond that which is written. For example, the Law states thou shalt not committ adultery. But Jesus illustrates how much more the true Christians love will abound for Him and His truth. He states in Matthew 5:28, "...That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Jesus shows that the true Christian will go far beyond the written letter of the law. Love will always raise the standard. The Christian not only keeps the Ten Commandments, he or she will also go so far as to not even THINK on those things within the heart that are against the Law of their God. We do this because we love Him and want to please HIm with all our hearts! We do not do this because we don't want to burn in Hell. This does not even come to the mind of the true child of God. It truly is a labor of love.
Philippians 4:8, "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."
Rebuttal #6: WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW BUT UNDER GRACE
Biblical facts...
This is how the World preach this verse... Romans 6:14-15, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace..." AND THEY STOP! But let us continue on and finish the verse...
Romans 6:14-15, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."
Popular theology is that if we sin AFTER salvation we can no longer loose our salvation because we are under grace. I have NUMEROUS verses listed here that prove that a bogus lie... answers.htm#8 My favorite verse is... (Notice the words in bold)
Hebrews 6:4-8, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."
Sinners are UNDER THE LAW because without Jesus they bear the curse of the Law. Biblical fact remains...
The definition of sin = 1 John 3:4, "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
The penalty of sin = Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
The cost of sin = 2 Corinthians 5:21, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 1 Corinthians 6:20, "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."
When you accept Jesus as Lord you receive the strength to keep His Law. Paul anticipated their response in Romans 6 did he not? In essence they literally said, "since we are under grace, can we break His Law now?" Paul answered, GOD FORBID!
By the way. To further address the "Once saved always saved" issue. Read this passage...
John 5:14, "Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."
This verse amply proves as did the passage I shared above in Hebrews 6 that IF WE CHOOSE TO SIN after becoming "made whole" then a worse thing will come unto us!
Rebuttal #7 IF WE HAVE FAITH WE NEED NOT THE LAW!
Romans 3:31, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."
Romans 6:15, "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."
It appears the early church also thought they no longer needed the law of God once they had the faith of Jesus. Paul tackles this situation directly by stating GOD FORBID! How can one say that, that which brought Him the knowledge of Christ is now no longer needed?
Galatians 3:24, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
Many will say that because the Word then says we are no lunger "unde" schoolmaster that we need not carry the law. I say unto them, what if your schoolmaster was a tightrope walker? After he taught you all that he knew, and you learned how to walk the rope, once graduated, do you FORGET that which taught you how to prevent your death?
Romans 7:7, "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
Rebuttal #8 I AM A CHRISTIAN AND I AM "WITHOUT" OR "NOT UNDER" THE LAW
1 Corinthians 9:21, "To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ) that I might gain them that are without law."
Then it is for you I preach. Need I say more?
Rebuttal #9 I NEED NOT WORRY ABOUT THE "CURSE OF THE LAW"
Galatians 3:13, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"
Look at "law" in general for a moment. Take for example the "laws of nature." Can you break the laws of nature and not suffer their curse upon you? What of the law of gravity? Can you leap from a tall building and NOT crash to the ground? The curse of that particular law is DEATH if you break it. No matter how hard you try to explain away, or preach that that law is not for you, or it's curse does not apply to you simply because you are "above the law" or "special" or "non-believing" of it. No matter, the curse will apply to you. Jump from the building, the curse will apply. You will die.
So... I ask, if you cannot side step the mere laws of nature, HOW pray tell can you side step the laws of God? Break His Law, and you will suffer the curse of the law. Plain and simple.
Galatians 3:10, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."
Rebuttal #10 AFTER JESUS DIED THE COVENANT WAS CHANGED
Hebrews 9:16-17, "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."
According to Scripture, the testament / covenant actually goes in force after the death of the Testator. In other words, in order to change ANYTHING in the Covenant, the Testator MUST DO SO BEFORE DEATH! Ask any lawyer and they will tell you that you can change your last will and testament before you die, but after you die it is impossible! That which the Testator placed in writing before death, becomes strong and rock solid after his death. And Scripture verifies that fact.
Jesus SEALED it with His blood.
Rebuttal #11 CHRISTIANS NEED NOT OBEY THE LAW
Romans 6:16, "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"
2 Peter 1:10, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
Obedience is extremely important! Simple Biblical fact is Satan wants you to dis-obey, where the Almighty wants you to obey. It's the same old story since day one. The Word tells us in Revelation 21:27, "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." The Word is telling us that nothing sinful will enetr into Heaven. THAT is why Satan wants you to keep disobeying the Lord. He does not want you to enter in. Just as Adam and Eve were asked to OBEY the Lord, so are we asked to OBEY the Lord. The truth is this folks, the Lord tells us that "...affliction shall not rise up the second time."-Nahum 1:9 That means that sin will NOT start up again in Heaven after we get there. Do you realize what that means? WE ARE BEING TESTED! The Lord is looking for those human beings He created that will CHOOSE NOT to sin down here on earth no matter what the situation is. How can the Lord allow us into His Kingdom knowing we choose not ot obey Him down here? One major issue of this whole ball of wax is this. Disobediance is Satan's main concern, he has devised tricks and situations all through history designed to get man to sin, thereby declaring their disloyalty to the Creator. And ALL of it is about to come to a major head. The very last attack on mankind in general has to do with WHO you will choose to obey. The Almighty and His Word, or the devil and His lies. The MARK OF THE BEAST is Satan's masterpiece that declares unto the Creator that he has been able to convince literally BILLIONS upon the Earth that his evil ways are better than the Lord's Truth. Look around and see for yourself, Satan has gotten almost all of mankind to obey him, instead of the Lord. Literally billions of "so called" Christians are obeying the fabricated unBiblical lies of the devil over and above the easy to research Truths of Scripture.
You are placing us under the OLD COVENANT!
I would like to allow my favorite preacher to answer this one. He was confronted by three seminarians after preaching one night. Listen to how he answered their questions.
I had just finished preaching on the subject of the Sabbath in one of my evangelistic crusades. As I stepped off the platform to greet the people as they left, three young men blocked my way in the aisle. One of hem addressed me in quite a loud voice— loud enough to cause about fifty people near the front of the auditorium to stop and listen. “Brother Joe,” he said, “we were disappointed tonight with the way you put us back under the Old Covenant. Don’t you realize that we are living under the New Covenant now, and should keep Sunday instead of the Sabbath?” Although most of the congregation were leaving the building, the group near the front gathered closer to hear all that the young men were saying. It was obvious that I would have to take the time to answer this trio's challenging question. As I suspected, they turned out to be young seminarians in training at a local Bible college. Eagerly they held their Bibles in their hands and waited triumphantly for me to answer. Usually, I do not like to debate controversial matters in a public forum, for fear of stirring combative natures, but there seemed no way to avoid dealing with these ministerial students. Anyway, they had my path completely blocked, and the circle of listeners looked at me expectantly for some explanation.
“Well, it seems as though you have studied the subject of the covenants quite deeply,” I suggested. “Oh, yes,” they affirmed, “we know all about the covenants.” “Good,” I replied. “You undoubtedly know when the Old Covenant was instituted.” One of them spoke up quickly, “It was started at Mt. Sinai.” “And how was it ratified?” I asked. Without a moment’s hesitation one of them answered, “By the sprinkling of the blood of an ox.” “Very good,” I commented, “and how was the New Covenant ratified?” All three chorused the answer, “By the blood of Jesus on the cross.” I commended the young men for their knowledge of the Scriptures and asked them to read me two verses out of their own Bibles—Hebrews 9:16,17 and Galatians 3:15. They responded eagerly to the invitation, and read the verses, commenting on each one after reading. “We agree that the New Covenant did not go into effect until after Christ died, and nothing can be added or taken away after He ratified it on he cross,” the spokesman for the group asserted. All three nodded their heads emphatically over this point. I said. “Now you must answer two more questions for me. Here’s the first one, and you must think carefully to give me the correct answer: When did Sunday-keeping begin?” There was a moment of shocked silence, and then another, and another. The boys looked at each other, and then down at their feet, and then back at me. I gently prodded them for the answer, “Surely you can tell me the answer to this question. You have known all the others, and have answered correctly. When and why do you think people began keeping Sunday?” Finally, one of them said, “We keep Sunday in honor of the resurrection of Jesus.” I said, “Then I must ask you my last question. How could Sunday keeping be a part of the New Covenant? You just stated that nothing could be added after the death of Christ. He died on Friday and was resurrected on Sunday. If Sunday was added after Jesus died, it could never be a part of the New Covenant could it?” The three young men shuffled their feet, looked helplessly around, and one of them said, “We’ll study into that and talk to you later.” Then they fled from that auditorium as fast as they could go. I can assure you, also, that they never returned to talk further about the covenants." -Joe Crews "Why the Old Covenant Failed" (Library of Sermons No. 14) pages 19-22
WHY DOES THE DEVIL ATTACK THE LAW
Why do you suppose the Devil would make such an open and apparent attack on the Ten Commandments? Do you suppose there's something about the Law of God that is so important that the enemy would not have us find out about it? Have you ever seen this passage?
Galatians 3:24, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
The Law of God is what defines sin! The Law of God declares we NEED a Saviour! The Law of God tell sus to seek out Jesus to help us because we cannot do it without Him. Think about the simplicity of that fact. The Ten Commandments are the actual laws of the Creator God that declares in 1 John 2:4, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." That is in essence saying, HOW can you claim to be A CHRISTIAN if you don't keep His Law? How? That's exactly what that passage says! You are a LIAR if you say to the World that you are a Christian, and then bow down in front of a statue to pray a rosary. You are a LIAR if you say to the World that you are a Christian, and then break the Seventh Day Sabbath of the Lord Jesus Christ who is in fact LORD OF THE SABBATH according to Matthew 12:8. The basic fact is, the Law of God POINTS OUT SIN to you. That's why the Devil does not want you to keep it. If he can keep you from the Law of God, he can sufficiently prevent you from finding out that you are in sin...
Romans 3:20, "...for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
Romans 7:7, "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law..."
And then Romans 7:7 confirms it's speaking of the Law of God when it explains further at the end of the verse, "for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Is that amazing? Now do you see why the devil wants you to believe the Law was abolished at the cross??
I realize there is alot here for you to study but I believe you need it! God Bless!
Re: RE: Love is..God! Not Laws
Hebrews 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
"Clearly that shows you are the one that needs more study as does this."
Galations 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
"Clearly showing even the law of circumcision is void, which was to show you where under that law if a man. You use your own words, I use the bibles."
Galations 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
"Clearly showing, we are justified by our faith in Christ, not by deeds of the law. To say the 10 commandments are not part of the 613 laws is just showing a lack of study, or a cop out"
Galations 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
" For I through the law AM DEAD TO THE LAW, THAT I MIGHT LIVE UNTO GOD! I suggest you do the same, and get out of that cult your in and its teachings, they are far from biblicial"
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
"You have not kept the whole law, not even the whole ten commandments which are the first laws, so you have broken every law, like it or not."
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
"And you try to judge me as not following the will of God, by not following the day you say is the right day to worship Him on, I say everyday is the right day."
RE: Love is..God! Not Laws
What is abundantly clear is that you did not read my last two posts which covered all your passages that you just mentioned. What is abundantly clear is that you are looking thru rose color stained glass windows. What is abundantly clear is by you admitting the ten commandment law is still valid today, then you would have to realize that what you have believed and been taught was wrong from the beginning and then how many other beliefs you hold are faulty as well? I suggest you kneel at the cross of Jesus and tell him that it was useless for Him to die on the cross for you. Why do I say that? Because you do not want to accept His perfect sacrifice on the cross. Christ died so that we might live..not in a life of sin..but a new life with power to overcome sin..and what is sin...sin is the transgression of the law! Period! There is no way around it. The only way that the law (TC) would be gone is if we had NO SIN on planet earth...and we all know that this is not the case. If it is..well then give me your address so I can come and steal what money you have, or maybe have an affair with your girlfriend/wife, or maybe curse yout parents to there face, or put up Idols in your house. Do you see where this is leading? According to you we have to keep 9 of the 10 commandments but the 4th one interferes with what you personally want to do with that day! Is it better to obey man or is it better to obey God?
Re: RE: Love is..God! Not Laws
Wrong-o sister. . . what the deal is, is you use your words and I use the Lords words. . . look above. . .
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
"CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT!"
And you did not address all the verses, some I just posted for the first time and I did read your post, your opinions and your take, not the bibles.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death!!!For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
"Can you understand that!" We do not walk after the laws, but the Spirit of Christ! You said tell Christ, He didn't died for me? Yet Christ said He died for all men. . . again your not very well versed in studies. . . And it is you that try to add to the atonement, as if Christ needs help paying for your sins of the flesh.
KJV 1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
THATS who the law is for. . . so if its for you. . . your. . . the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
Don't try to add to that, or read into it, it means what it says! Get out of that CULT your in sister, time is short, don't let them tell you, study the word, you need NO MAN to teach you, let the Holy Spirit. It was started by Ellen White, a known lair and false prophet! I say this out of love and truth. Your as the temple preist trying to put burdens on the backs of those seeking Christ!
Mathew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mathew 23:2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mathew 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
THATS just what you are doing, you yourself have said you do not and cannot keep all thje laws, yet try to tell others to do CERTAIN laws you agree with, shame on you!
Re: Love is...God! Not laws
I notice in your last post that you are starting to go on the defensive end of the spectrum. Could that be because you are running out of false ammunition? You say I use my words and you use the Lords..and yet my posts (2 quite lengthy) are filled with nothing but scripture.
You also forgot to address whether or not I can come to your house and steal your money, clothes, car, possessions, wife/girlfriend..because according to you..we don't have to keep the law. You are missing some very important scriptures or purposely looking over them because you stand in condemnation of the law.
Let me address it like this. If we don't have to keep the law like you keep implying..what is Christ going to judge us on? What is Christ going to reward us on? Is he going to reward us on just love? Because if thats the case even the evil ones in this world LOVE!
Jesus said "if ye love me keep my commandments" What was this referring too? According to your beliefs, apparently it was referring to nothing. However let me assure you it was referring to something. It was referring to the ten commandments....
Re 22:14 -
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Read that carefully..because those that enter the kingdom of God and have the right to the tree of life...are those that keep His commandments.
Now just also to show you what love is...and this is the Bible not me speaking:
1Jo 5:3 -
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jo 1:6 -
And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Wow Love is keeping the commandments. Do you see that? So let me ask you this..are you loving God like he says we are to love him? If not, why not? Praise God his commandment are not grevious!
lol. . . O come on, this alone puts the law debate to rest. . .
KJV 1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
THATS who the law is for. . . so if its for you. . . your. . . the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
Quote:
You also forgot to address whether or not I can come to your house and steal your money, clothes, car, possessions, wife/girlfriend..because according to you..we don't have to keep the law.
We are to obey all the laws of the land, if not in moral contradiction with the word of God, and no one is saying one shouldn't try to keep the ten commandments. What I am saying is, number one you can't. You don't even observe the Sabbath laws on the Sabbath, here is no way you can, the temple is not there, nor can you keep the Sabbath scarifies laws either. And the new moon is a Sabbath as well, ANY day set aside as a day of rest and prayer by Father is a Sabbath. You do not observe them all nor even uphold the laws of the Sabbath and its rites, you can't!
Thats why Father sent the verse "If you break one law you break them all" Knowing full well you couldn't keep the laws. . .
Nice try with that, "I note your going on the defense," bit, lol,
Re: Love is..God! Not Laws
You Said in last post....
lol. . . O come on, this alone puts the law debate to rest. . .
KJV 1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
******************************************
Now let me post that verse again with certain parts highlighted so you can understand (or I at least hope you can) By the way even my 2 year old understands the difference between Gods TC law and the Ceremonial law But here goes again
KJV 1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is NOT MADE FOR A RIGHTEOUS MAN, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for SINNERS, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
Now the key parts are highlighted...the law would not be made for a righteous man because righteous means without sin..perfect in Christ..so the law was given for SINNERS and that means you and I Your own post told me this..so I guess thats what you meant by putting it to rest, because since you and I are SINNERS that means the law was made for US and we should be keeping the law, since it was made for US..Isn't it amazing how when you let the BIBLE speak, how things become so clear
KingJehu
Unregistered User
(11/3/02 7:49 pm) Reply
SNIDE remarks. .
AGAIN no need for snide remarks. . . even my two year old understands? come on if your right the debate will tell, no need for snide remarks, I see how you debate.
SECOND WE as Christians are sinless, we are of the spirit not the flesh. . . we went over this before and you didnt refute any of the verses with verses, JUST your opinion. I take the word of God for what it says and means, I do not add or take away from it. You are a sinner? The God does not hear you!
John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
So your a sinner so God doesn't hear your prayers then and your not OF Christ. . . Christ will NOT partake of sin! You try to make Him the minister of sin!
Galations 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, "SEE THAT, Jews by nature! and NOT sinners of the Gentiles. . . yet He was writting to Christians and not messianic jews either!)
2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(There is your laws!"
2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
(See that! If you seek to be justified by Christ, you cannot be a sinner, God has cleaned you and made you free from sin!"
2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
(I am dead to the law, you are not. And the Ceremonial laws are the Sabbath laws, which you do not uphold!"
You claim to sin, and be a sinner. . . fine, then I see why you have trouble understanding the word of God.
1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
(READ! don't let others tell you what you are to believe, let the Holy Spirit teach you. That is very clear!)
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
(Your of the Devil! Its right there. . . So DONT go arounding trying to change the words of God, in the word the same greek word is used for sin in all them passages. . . as it is here.)
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
(the only way one sins if is God holds Him under the law, He does not hold Christians to the law)
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
(Thats it, if your Born of God you sin NOT! Now are you born of God or not? And don't try to add anything to them verses unless its by the bible, and don't say its wrong either, its not, study the Youngs Literal Translation of the Greek.)
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
"Taken out of context? Kind of."
1 John 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
"To be clean of sin, is absent of it. Man is born of the flesh, and the flesh is sin, so all have sinned, no one is saying we all haven't, but once born into the spirit, you are reborn a new creature by the quickening of your spirit with Christ. Christ will not partake in sin."
1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
If Christ is your minister Father forbid sin to be in you, for Christ will not partake in sin. Therefore He gives us new life 'the quickening' in spirit, and a spirit free from sin."
RE:Snide Remarks
You said "SECOND WE as Christians are sinless, we are of the spirit not the flesh. . . we went over this before and you didnt refute any of the verses with verses, JUST your opinion. I take the word of God for what it says and means, I do not add or take away from it. You are a sinner? The God does not hear you!"
So does this mean that you do not lie? One of the ten commandments...what about covet...another one..what about steal, curse, put anything above God, lust after another woman/man.... WAKE UP!!! The Bible says "For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God" and then the Bible says the "wages of sin is death" I guess in your view, Paul was not a christian either...and did not listen to God or believe in God because he said " I am the chiefest sinner of them all"
You posted "2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
As i explained to you before we are not saved or justified by keeping the LAW. What don't you understand? We keep the law BECAUSE we are saved!!
You said " 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
(See that! If you seek to be justified by Christ, you cannot be a sinner, God has cleaned you and made you free from sin!"
wow talk about distortin lets read what that verse says....
2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ,WE OURSELVES ARE ALSO FOUND SINNERS, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Here paul is saying when we seek Christ we find ourselves sinners.. Amazing what you try to do to HIS Word..
1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. (IN HIM (JESUS) IS NO SIN)
You Posted "1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
Notice the word whosoever....that implies you & me....
You posted and this i find hilarious might I add....
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
(Thats it, if your Born of God you sin NOT! Now are you born of God or not? And don't try to add anything to them verses unless its by the bible, and don't say its wrong either, its not, study the Youngs Literal Translation of the Greek.)
I John 5:18 is applying to JESUS!! How do i know this because you were not "begotten" of God. How do i know this because "begotten" means had parents and in this case would be applying to God as the parent to HIS SON JESUS-Not you!!!
1 John 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Hmm I wonder what we have to confess if according to you we as Christians are sinless???
And Finally with your out of context verses....
1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
Again this verse is apply to Jesus. the only thing referring to "US" is that we should have the same mind as He had.....
So there it is....the distorted twisted sister of bible verses trying to prove a point of yours that has no point to begin with. May i suggest that you find a pencil sharpner (the Bible) and fine tune your pencil (your knowledge of the Bible)
Again as I said before it is so simple that even my 2 year old understands the concept of law..For he is Not under my law, for he Knows that he must obey it in order to stay under my grace.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Doesnt apply to us, thats nonsence. . . first off its clear who sins. . . 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; NOW if you sin your of the devil. . .
Here it says. . . 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Now your trying to say that we are not BORN of God! Thats bull. 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
YET John makes it clear right there who is born of God. Again your lack in study shows.
Quote: So does this mean that you do not lie?
I lie but I wish I never lie or lied! So watch how Paul explains it.
Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
(here he explains his delema, lets say thing he is talking about is lying)
Romans 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
(Here he is saying, I if i do the things I wish I didnt do, then its the law that shows me that the things I dont want to do are good, therefore in that respect the law is good)
Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
(NOW THEN IT IS NO MORE I THAT DO IT, but sin that dwells in me! ITS NOT HIM LYING, he wishes he didnt lie, his heart is set on doing good, therefore his intent is taken into account)
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
(Now whats so hard to understand about that?)
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
(Now if I do that I would not. . . AGAIN very clear.)
1john 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
(If you are under the law, then you sin, are you under the law? If so the word of God says your cursed)
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
"Taken out of context? Kind of."
1 John 1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
"To be clean of sin, is absent of it. Man is born of the flesh, and the flesh is sin, so all have sinned, no one is saying we all haven't, but once born into the spirit, you are reborn a new creature by the quickening of your spirit with Christ. Christ will not partake in sin."
Galations 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
"Christ will not partake in sin, a Christian is born anew into spirit, and that spirit is him. He is no longer of the flesh... He died on the cross with Christ."
2 Corinitains 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Again I use the words of God. I take them for what they say and mean, and dont add or take away from them. I ask that you do the same
Blessings.
KingJehu.
djconklin Registered User
Posts: 1
(3/29/03 4:19 pm) Reply
Colossians 2:16-7
For those interested in understanding what these two verses are all about and how they realte to the Sabbath question see my in-depth and quite thorough study at members.tcq.net/dconklin/...intro.html
I spent a little over two years and looked at over 200 sources to find the answer. One gentleman who is working on his second doctorate said that I was the only one that he knew of who had it right.
===
> in fact many believe that if your not worshipping in saturday with them... your not even saved... and have had many tell me this very thing.
Any and all SDA's who told you this don't know what they are talking about and are quite wrong to do so.
Lauri837 Registered User
Posts: 4
(2/9/04 10:22 pm) Reply
Re: God blessed the seventh day
Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
This was before the Jewish nation even exsisted.
Exodus 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Some would say that this passage is meant for Israel. But God says this is forever. I say the New Testament says we (followers of Christ) are now spiritual Israel.
Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
If we say we follow Jesus - He kept Sabbath on the 7th day.
Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Then we have this. . .
KJV Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
SCGL Registered User
Posts: 1
(6/14/04 9:26 pm) Reply
Sabbath Command
Let's see...In the OT we have a command to keep the Sabbath Holy. Has this command changed in any way? If it has changed, then show the change of the command in the NT. If there is no change of the command, then it stands...correct?
So then, the proof of the evidence lies in your court, show us the command that changes the Sabbath.
Re: Love Is
These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD."
Colossians 2:16-7
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