yaali110
Should Israel be allowed to stay as a nation in the middle east? Should Jews be allowed to raises a temple on the Holy Mount right next to the dome of the rock?
yaali110
Unregistered User
(5/24/02 4:29 pm) Reply
Re:
786/110
Asalamoalikum!
I am not the very authority to say anything. So, here are my personal views.
Israel as a state in the middle east ? Yeah. They have every right to be there as per law. They own the land that they came into being in 1948. They CANNOT declare a new Israel state that comprises of illegally curbed land. But no one can deny them the right to exist in the land where they live peacefully under established law and in the land that they own legally (and as a part of the contract, if any, between them and muslims and christians etc.).
About, raising a temple on the holy mount. Again, they ought to take everyone into confidence b4 they make any critical decisions. Also, they must not try to do anything, no matter how noble, inside a land that they dont own, unless permitted by the owners and by the International law.
Okay first off, the west band and Gaza are part of Israel... they won it in war when the Islam nations attacked them in force... they didnt have to give it back, AND they took all of jerusalem... Islam attacked first, this is well known even by Muslims, as they brag about it. Second if Islam had won the lands from Israel, they would not have given it back, don't say they would because they had it since the Romans lost it to the Ottomen Empire, some 1800 years and never gave it back till it was mandated by international law in 48... BUT in fatc Israel did give back the west bank and parts of Jerusalem and Gaza, the Hights and other places... PLUS could have taken Lebenon but didn't. They say they want to live in peace and even for a time backed Arafat and let him have a police state... NOW Hamas says there will be no peace to Israel is run into the sea... their VERY words... so tell me who is wrong and who is right in this case... ?
yaali110
Unregistered User
(5/25/02 7:40 pm) Reply
clerification!
786/110
Asalamoalikum!
The truth is that there was a mutual exchange of fires and bombs etc. right after Israel and palestine were separated (194 . Muslims DID NOT start that. Even the media agrees that crossborder terrorism/war started right after 1948. Israel and paletsine...both. Ok, after that, you are right that some countries declared war against Israel cuz they almost defeated the palestinians and took over their land. Now, lets make it clear that declaration of war on israel by some muslim nations was NOT illegal or resentful. It's law of the war. You make friends and foes. Like, usa, uk, china...all. Whenever a friend country of usa is in crisis, they support it..militarily or otherwise. We all know that whats right for one side is wrong for other side. So, is the case here. Israel, with her support from other countries, got into war with egypt, jordan and syria. Again, israel was the upper hand. They captured areas from egypt, syria and lot more from palestine. War was ended. Every country suffered her loss. Israel refused to give back the land it had captured from egypt, syria and palestine.
Now, they were bound to give it back. What you are talking about muslims capturing their land and ruling on it...does not fit here, cuz it was during the times when it was understood that "he who wins-owns!"
Be them chrsitians, muslim, hindus or whatever. And it was a trend back then. But, int'l laws were made to clear the same confusions. Like it or loath it, israel was ordered by the UN to act fast and return the curbed land...and they did not.
They even invaded Lebanon. That's an open secret that it was israel who started the war between lebanon and herself claimimg that some lebanese terrorist had killed an important jew in london. The israel attacked lebanon and pushed them back till beirut. Later, they even captured Beirut. Again UNO interfeared and stopped the war and again demanded in vain from israel to return the land to the owners. They refused and no one dared to push israel to do what they were asked for! I hope no one disagrees at this very point. Yes, many countries DID ask israel to yeild but the point is that , they did NOT budge. This was a clear message from them that they wont listen to anyone, UNO, usa or neighbors.
And when they returned land to Egypt, it WAS NOT a sign of Israel's soft corner. The history says all. The president of egypt went to Israel and became the FIRST country to accept Israel's occupation on the held land..as LEGAL! Not even usa or any other country had accepted it. When egypt did, it was only then that Israel returned egypt her land.
You said they returned some land to palestine. Not helpful. If I am deprived of my 100 dollars and the theif gives me 10, 50 or even 90 dollars back.... I do not care. I want what I own. I want justice.
They ALSO never vacated Lebanon. BBC even relates that Hizbullah was formed in order to get lebanon back from the israel army. The war between Hizbullah and israel continued for a loooooooooong time, we all know that. And at one point of time, it dawned on Israel that they were quickly losing control over lebanon. Everyday, many israeli soldiers were dying in lebanon as hizbullah intensified its force. With hizbullah, lebanon was forcing the israel army out of the lebanon. U.S tried to impose peace till further negotiations would take place, but was too late. I dont blame hizbullah at all. I would have done the same thing if someone would have captured my land and then sat on it like a snake, not responding to any resolution or talks. Eventually, israel had to vacate south lebanon and get out of the lebonese areas. Israel never returned it as per contract or talks. They fought and captured. Hizbullah struck back and regained the control. So, is happening in palestine. They have two options. Either, act like anwar'al sadat who accepted israel's occupation (obviously they wont do it) or act like hizbullah and syrian government, who are in continuous fight with israel to abolish it's unlawful hold.
Nobody ever said that they will eliminate israel from the map. They just want to regain the control of their own land and for this matter they are doing everything...ranging from peaceful talks and UNO resolutions to fighting back with fires and might.
Now, if israel says we want peace, it does not make sense. How is it possible that usa is wrong; palestine is wrong; Arab world is wrong; European viewpoints are wrong and even the UNO is wrong... but israel is right?
My heart goes out to the innocent muslims and christians and jews and all people who are suffering in the long run.
Re: clarification! clarified :)
Following World War II, the British withdrew from their mandate of Palestine, and the UN partitioned the area into Arab and Jewish states, an arrangement rejected by the Arabs. Subsequently, the Israelis defeated the Arabs in a series of wars without ending the deep tensions between the two sides. The territories occupied by Israel since the 1967 war are not included in the Israel country profile, unless otherwise noted. In keeping with the framework established at the Madrid Conference in October 1991, bilateral negotiations are being conducted between Israel and Palestinian representatives (from the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip) and Israel and Syria, to achieve a permanent settlement. On 25 April 1982, Israel withdrew from the Sinai pursuant to the 1979 Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty. Outstanding territorial and other disputes with Jordan were resolved in the 26 October 1994 Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace. On 25 May 2000, Israel withdrew unilaterally from southern Lebanon, which it had occupied since 1982.
After more than two weeks of intensive discussions at Camp David, Maryland, Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat failed to reach an agreement.
The talks were convened at the insistence of President Bill Clinton on July 11. At first there were indications that agreement had been reached on several issues in dispute. There was basic acceptance that the borders of a future Palestinian state would incorporate the Gaza Strip and about 90 percent of the West Bank. Arafat signalled his consent that Israel would annex the most densely populated Jewish settlements.
Arafat also agreed to a proposal put forward by Barak on the question of the 3.6 million Palestinian refugees living outside of Israel, under which about 100,000 would be allowed to return to the homes they fled in the 1948 and 1967 wars as part of a family reunification programme. The substantial majority would have no right to return and would instead be compensated from an international fund.
There were substantial financial inducements for the Palestinians to accept these conditions and others that would result in a Palestinian state of an extremely truncated character, including limits on its right to organise its own security. The Clinton administration indicated that it would make at least $15 billion in extra spending available and possibly as much as $40 billion on signing of an agreement.
Despite Arafat's willingness to make major concessions, he could not accept the proposals on the fate of Jerusalem offered by Israel and backed by the US. The Palestinians are demanding the return of East Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state. The eastern part of the city was seized by Israel from Jordan in the 1967 war and includes the walled city, home of the holiest relics of Islam, Judaism and Christianity.
Barak proposed that Israel keep residual sovereignty over all the holy sites in Jerusalem's Old City, while giving the Palestinians custodial or shared sovereignty of some religious sites and the more outlying districts of East Jerusalem. Overall sovereignty would remain in Israeli hands. In an apparently unintended insult, Israel promised to build tunnels to enable Arafat to travel to Palestinian areas of East Jerusalem without having to set foot on Israeli territory.
yaali110
Unregistered User
(5/26/02 10:49 am) Reply
yup!!!!!
786/110
Asalamaolikum!
Yeah! i thats what i mean: that whatever was snatched illegally must be returned. See! it's like a question of rightful ownership now. No one would like to compromise on that.
Regarding withdrawal of israeli forces from Southern Lebanon: It was only because they were able to foresee their imminent defeat. We all know that Israeli CIA is reputed to be one of the best agencies in the world...even far better than the U.S. And when they saw that it was not going to work out, then they withdrew. In July 1989, israeli forces abducted the leader of hizbullah. Feb 1992, the sec. general of hizbullah was killed by the israeli forces. They went as far as abducting a head of lebonese org. from his house in east lebanon, in 1994. It's no secret. Even bbc states that israeli commandos were responsible for that. 1996: israeli forces launched Operation "Grapes o Wrath" and bombed the bases of Hizbullah in Biqa and Beirut. The point to be noted is that they were so ruthless is these opertions. Then the April 1996: QUOTE:-
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"1996 18 April - An Israeli attack on a UN base at Qana results in the death of over 100 Lebanese refugees sheltering there." (Courtesy: BBC)
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I mean, they were doing all these crimes in Lebanon...a country and a land they DID NOT own or control, plus the whole world tried to stop them. For almost 20 years, they kept fighting and attacking. When the hizbullah started regaining the captured lands rapidly, the israeli assembly voted for a complete withdrawal by July. anyhow, the withdrew well before that, since SLA was outmanouvered by hizbullah too. And Lebanon had cleared the confusions that it won't declare hizbullah as an illegal force for its fighting for a legal cause.
Israeli withdrawal was not a compromise on part of israel. They were there illegally and the withdrawal was necessary and inevitable.
Same is in palestine. Unfortunately, palestinians need some good and well able leader. Do you agree, I am just wondering. cuz personally, i dont think Arafat is the best or even a good leader to represent them. Or is he ?
Anyway! I hope truth prevails soon and no more innocent lives are put at stake. Amen!
Re: yup!!!!!yup!!!!!yup!!!!!yup!!!!!yup!!!!!yup!!!!!
Well then if were going back in history then the Jews win hands down... unless you can find some caanites... your the one that wants to go back in history... King David paid for that mount before the word Islam was ever heard of, so the jews were by far... there first.
Main Entry: Zi·on·ism
Pronunciation: 'zI-&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1896
: an international movement orig. for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel
Whats wrong with that now? And once again Arafat had a chance to make the deal... 90% He wanted ALL of Jerusalem as well... second... we have a saying in Texas... you mess with the bull you get the horn... Israel was attacked in 67... there is no doubt about this... and in 73 as well... Muslims brag about how they struct first... and history bares the record on the matter as well... Israel is willing to make peace... even trying land... ask Egypt... ask Jordon...
Israel is tired of scrapping their babies and loved ones off the streets with a spoon.
I myself don't blame them. NOR do I support many of the things some of them have done... there is blame on both sides... but all in all Israel has been the one that has shown they are willing to live in peace... with a Palestine state. Israel has by my view of the world, given land back for peace... to say this is not true would be a grave mistake on anyones part.
They gave Arafat full and armed control LIKE he wanted, and said he needed to stop the bombings... they not only havent stopped, but have become more and more common place. He released people from Jail he said he wouldn't ever let out and they made mass bombings, blood and carnage was their game... and they got praise for it, Their supporters rejoicing in their glory, innocent blood on the hands of those that they honor. Proud to call them brothers.
Hamas has made it clear as well, NO PEACE... as have many other fractions... not counting other Arab states... say iran... Iraq and syria to name a few... They have also made it know that anyone that sets off a bomb and kills will be paid great amounts of money to them... some cowards have even strapped bombs on 17 year old girls and sent them to their death, killing little jewish babies in the process... Others that support the Palestine's war fly planes into buildings.
I'm not even going to get into the fact that Muslims burned a train load of Hindus in india not long ago.... or hacked a whole village of Christians to death in Malaysia, or fighting freedom in Afghanistan. Nor will we talk about their harsh laws of chopping off body parts for stealing or the fact that Iran hates Iraq, Iraq hates Turkey, and the Kurds, Turks hates the kurds too and would dearly love to have syria as their own... please can't seem to get along with the greeks.
Now Pakistan is facing off with India over kashmer... We not even bringing the old boy Saddam into all this yet... or Al-qata "?" And I am in no way saying the other sides dont have fualts of their own... but it seems to me that Islam is on the move to a major Jihad, with much zeal and intent on making it a Islam only world... and to attain the 5th way of killing those that don't bow to Islam seems to be their cry.
I would take a hard look at your faith and your brothers... as I do mine.
God help us all if "these" Muslims ever stop killing them selves, and I don't hold all Muslims in on basket by no means... there are good in bad in all faiths. We all agree on one thing... come judgment day we will all stand tall before the God... and will answer for our words and actions and those we support in words and spirit... I pray you fair well in your day of trembling knees.
Rules and Laws are strict and cannot be compromised...in religions or in countries. The very idea of living in peace is JUST pleasant sounding. Reality is what some people are trying to avoid to get into.
Paletinians need peace and NOT a compromise. Israel is NOT the only one tired of scooping up the dead bodies of innocent israelis. The palestinians are facing even worse situation. No question about that, I guess. Damage has been done to both sides, Palestinians suffered and are suffering many times more.
Regarding Arafat's ideas and decisions, I am sorry i told you I dont think he is the right leader for his people. So is the case with Saddam. I love the people of Iraq and palestine but unfortunately their proclaimed leaders are selfish kind.
Similarly, I condemn Sharon's acts. He is a Terrorist in true sense of words. Cries of peace are far from true when it comes to sharon...a person who was proven guilty of massacre of many innocent refugees. Israel public supports him ? Good for them and him. He is the most unwanted outside the Israel and as you say "Mess with the bull and you get a horn!" They attacked lebanon and unfortunately, lebanon Hizbullah has many friends in Syria, Iran, Palestine, Iraq etc. So, hitting the hizbullah territory was something that initiated a chain reaction. Very true that Israel did not threaten other countries directly, but it did threaten their role models for true jihad.
Hamas' many activities again, are NOT Right and they get carried away that is totally Wrong. But hizbullahs are now fighting without harming the innocents.
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Israel, I say, is not the one who is asking for peace. QUOTE:
"Israel is willing to make peace... even trying land... ask Egypt... ask Jordon... "
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Even the jordanian and egyptian people say that Israel is NOT in favor of peace. Maybe asking for a Compromise but not peace.
Attack on Israel in 1967 was not start of a war. It was retaliation. Timeline tells us that 1967 was result of mounting tensions between israel and her neighbors. And by that time Israel was already ocuppying illegally assumed land from Palestine. That's why, "The UN issued Security Council Resolution 242, stressing "the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war" and calling for "withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict"."
And 1973 war was inevitable. BBC even tells us that Syria and egypt tried every diplomatic mean to regain their lost land and when every such effort failed, only then they launched a robust attack on Israel. And in this regard, I completely support Egypt and Syria. I would talk to my enemies to give back my rightful property and ask for a third party like UN to look for it and if the results are zero, I'd do anything to get my Right, for Right IS Might and Not Might Right
What's going on in Indo-Pakistan region is the same thing. Struggles of Kashmiries to get freedom are being supported by pakistan and while doing this many misunderstandings have risen. Some say that not moral but pakistan is giving them armed support etc.
I say that these issues are very deep and need immediate attention for important issues, with the passage of time, become urgent and eventually, inevitable!
Re: in Depth
I will agree that Sharon is very harsh on his treatment of the PALS... no doubt... BUT thats just why Israel voted him in, because he would deal with the PLO Hamas and all the rest of the terrorist groups in such a way as to get results. Now remember this last big push, where Israel hit the PLO where it counted... surrounding Arafats compound and such... NO ONE CAN SAY THIS DIDNT STOP THE SUICIDE BOMBINGS... it did... they stop all the way up until Israel pulled back... then the big one went off in Telvie "spl?" So the result of Sharon being in control is because he gets the job done.
WE must also remember why Egypt, Jordon and Syria had to ask for thier landss back bro... BECAUSE they all attacked Israel at once and in force, and lost anyway. You can't go around attacking people then cry because you lost the fight. If I was Israel's head of State they wouldn't have gotton any of the land back... NOR would I have given Japan statehood again after ww2 or germany for that matter so I'm not the best one to be asking if they had a right to the land they lost. To me in alot of cases God gives man lands to take care of and rule with fairness and justice... if one abuses this land God will take it away... and thats just what I believe happened in 67 and 73...
Regarding Arafat's ideas and decisions, I am sorry i told you I dont think he is the right leader for his people. So is the case with Saddam. I love the people of Iraq and palestine but unfortunately their proclaimed leaders are selfish kind.
(We agree on that, BUT these people need to rise up and take control of the countries they live in themselves. Not back their evil leaders because they fear them.)
They attacked lebanon
(Oh come on bro, they attacked Lebanon because Lebanon was harboring terrorist from many groups and not just hezbullah, )
What's going on in Indo-Pakistan region is the same thing. Struggles of Kashmiries to get freedom are being supported by pakistan and while doing this many misunderstandings have risen. Some say that not moral but pakistan is giving them armed support etc.
(Yes but the funny things about that is that the people of Kashmir are overwhelming hindu and want nothing to do with Pakistain. It's like what the muslims are pulling in India itself... India has always been a Hindu nation, but because a small percent of Muslims live there they want to control the people and FORCE others to bow to Islam... its the old "Islamic only goal" they have set for the world... same thing in Maylasia and other places... and you cannot deny the fifth way to "react" or "attain" Jihad is to kill by the sword "weapon" those that do not bow to Allah. This in itself show's the harshness of Islam, not to mention their own harsh laws on things such as chopping off a hand for stealing of killing a women if she has sex outside of her marriage...
yaali110
Unregistered User
(6/14/02 9:09 pm) Reply
no where !!!!!
786/110
Asalamoalikum !
Ok! I guess this going to lead us nowhere, cuz your and mine ideas are very (thats a big very) very different.
First of all, THERE WERE suicide bombings even when the ramallah was surrounded by the israeli forces. When that happened the CNN and many other news channels commented that maybe it's not helping israel to attack Ramallah. The suicide bombings stopped meanwhile but there overall frequency was almost same.
Sharon is only harsh ? I do not agree. He is a terrorist, involved in the massacre and rapes of many innocents. And that's an open secret. Sharon sucks to say the least. Supporting a bullheaeded leader is idiotic idea. Sharon is harsh thats why israelis support him. Ok! Maybe then same is with Mr. Saddam. Iraqis supported a bad leader like saddam and had to go thru a lot. Israelis are doing the same thing and are paying for it. If someone supports a person who killed my family, then I am no angel to love that person or his supporters. Simple as that.
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QUOTE: "WE must also remember why Egypt, Jordon and Syria had to ask for thier landss back bro... BECAUSE they all attacked Israel at once and in force, and lost anyway. You can't go around attacking people then cry because you lost the fight."
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Again, thats rules of the war. Had this been the rule of the war that "he who wins owns", trust me Israel could have been a history, esp. today when the surrounding neighbors are much stronger and israel is too occupied to retain inside security. By the way, Israel has always been helped by the U.S. in their war, thats how they countered the Syrian, and egyptian military. It's IMPOSSIBLE for U.S to deny help to Israel, not coz of mere brotherhood, but MONEY. Money speaks louder
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QUOTE: "(Oh come on bro, they attacked Lebanon because Lebanon was harboring terrorist from many groups and not just hezbullah, )"
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Again, my ideas are very different. Hizbullah is NOT a terrorist org. Plus, it's not so easy to get away by saying that they were harboring terrorists. For Labenon, Israel is harboring terrorists. For USA Iraq is harboring terrorists; For Iraq it's U.S.
If Israel was innocent enough then media must have supported it's attack on the Labenon, like USA's attack on Taliban. Majority of the people supported it. BUT, what happened when they attacked labenon or refused to return land to syria, egypt etc. No one supported it. Even USA, (only verbally) condemned it. The difference is that israel did NOT care. Media turned against israel. Hezbullah was formed and they had to strike back. The did and did it with force. And soon the israeli forces were foiled they started crying that Hezbullah is organizing itself to invade israel and carry out terrorist attacks in usa etc. All falsehood.
Arafat and Saddam and Sharon are the wrongly decided leaders. They are to be condemned by their own people. Not one or two, all of them.
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QUOTE: "the funny things about that is that the people of Kashmir are overwhelming hindu and want nothing to do with Pakistain."
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OMG! wake up bro. Here is the hard fact.
Quote from BBC Timeline on Kashmir Issue:
"The population of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir is over 60% Muslim, making it the only state within India where Muslims are in the majority."
Also, check this out:
A Human Rights Watch Report, written in June 1999, detailing abuses in the Kashmir valley against the judiciary, the press and human rights defenders. Offers a short summary and a series of recommendations.
Aslo, the india says that cuz the ruler of the kashmir at a particular time decided to make kashmir, part of india, therefore they own kashmir.
U.N disagrees and the actual story of how kashmir's fate was wrongfully decided is here:
Ref: "Although the majority of Kashmir's population is Muslim, the region was ruled by a Hindu King at the time. He ignored the UN's request, and decided unilaterally to annex the region onto India. Pakistan refused to recognize the treaty of accession, leading to the Indo-Pakistani war of 1949."
(written by Kelly Keenan, Hons. B. Sc.) URL: www.cowac.org/xsc4.html
So, you see? not a minority of muslims in kashmir but minority is others.
About Killing someone who does not follow your religion: I have repeated time and agin that it's true and I agree on that. Such people are extremists. About chooping of a hand and punishment for adultery or fornication etc., it has already been discussed in some other posts. For a person outside the islam, it may seem strict. But we can't interpret the religion and its teachings unless we know the ins and outs of it. Hope this was helpful.
Hope u have a nice weekend.
Re: no where !!!!!
LOOK sinse I talked to you last a man got on a bus and killed little school children... his dad said he was proud of his son... are you as well?
First of all, THERE WERE suicide bombings even when the ramallah was surrounded by the israeli forces. When that happened the CNN and many other news channels commented that maybe it's not helping israel to attack Ramallah. The suicide bombings stopped meanwhile but there overall frequency was almost same.
(Thats not true there were NO bombing while Israel was in control ramallah not ONE.)
Arafat himself supports this and NOW has asked Hamas to join him... He let one man out of jail he said would be there for life... then the man himself, a known terrorist, even by the PLO. And he the very next day killed many jews. Arafat has AS much blood on his hands as anyone that has ever lived...
You keep sending me to baisis Islam sites... bro... all them sites were done by Muslims... and one sided...
You write: "The population of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir is over 60% Muslim, making it the only state within India where Muslims are in the majority."
(This is ONLY in the last 15 years and its also because alot of muslims moved their and are not native born, and also they have that fear tactic of submit to Allah or be poit to the sword... the fifth was to attain Jihad... don't say it isn't.)
About Killing someone who does not follow your religion: I have repeated time and agin that it's true and I agree on that. Such people are extremists. About chooping of a hand and punishment for adultery or fornication etc., it has already been discussed in some other posts. For a person outside the islam, it may seem strict. But we can't interpret the religion and its teachings unless we know the ins and outs of it. Hope this was helpful.
Hope u have a nice weekend.
(So you believe then it's allahs will they do such things? Is that it?)
YOU write: If someone supports a person who killed my family, then I am no angel to love that person or his supporters. Simple as that.
(See thats just one of the difference of our faith and yours, we are told to love all, even our enemies and to bless them that curse us and pray for them that harm us. Our God is so awesome He declares... Vengance is mine, I will repay... you just love, love, love... not send a 17 year old girl to blow herself and others up, way not let Allah deal with it.)
yaali110
Unregistered User
(6/21/02 5:04 pm) Reply
hmm!!!!!
786/110
Asalamoalikum!
First of all, I did NOT relate any islamic websites in my last post. One website was of "Human Rights Org." and one reference was from BBC and the last one was from cowac.org
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COWA: [The Council On World Affairs is a registered Canadian non-profit, charitable corporation, dedicated to the optimum development of Canadian youth within the global community. We initiate and fund opportunities for students to maximize their potential within the competitive world framework. COWA was awarded its Letters Patent in 1991, and is administered by a nine member regional Board and an Executive Officer.
Origins:-
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The roots of MUN's in Niagara trace back to Fort Erie Secondary School, where, between 1985-87, Mike Keenan, a teacher and alderman in Fort Erie, organized a series of three annual Model Town Hall Meetings. Fort Erie students simulated roles of staff and local politicians in the conduct of a council meeting. Contentious contemporary issues were employed. In the third year of this program, students from both Fort Erie S. S. and Ridgeway Crystal Beach H.S. competed.
In the Spring of 1985, Miriam Lapp, a Model Town Hall participant, suggested that FESS form a Model U. N. club. Thus, the first Niagara MUN team was formed, and with limited experience, competed at SOMA, May, 1985. That team consisted of Miriam Lapp, Alexis Pike, Jeff Remington, Charlotte Pocklington and Blair Healy, all participants in the municipal Model Town Hall program.
Next year, despite four of the original five having graduated, the MUN team grew to eight members: Karyn Keenan, Cara Pike, Haidee Wasson, Karen Knutson, Wendy McKellar, Dan Naundorf, Scott Bomhof, with Jeff Remington returning. The club never looked back, competing internationally at Harvard and in New York.
In 1988, Mike Keenan transferred to Niagara Falls, and with Ward Kramer, another teacher, organized an MUN team at A. N. Myer S. S. In two years, Myer students were running their own simulation and performing missionary work in schools throughout the entire Niagara region. Myer students were responsible for assisting schools in Niagara Falls, St. Catharines, Niagara-on-the-Lake, Grimsby, Thorold, Welland, Fort Erie and wherever else they were asked for support.
Seminars were conducted on how to establish and maintain a club, how to promote and teach skills, and how to get ready and participate in an actual MUN. During those formative years, some key Myer student leaders were Rob Walters, Kelly Keenan, Nik Spilka, and Lisa Talbot, all of whom were secretary-generals at the annual conference.
Another developmental highlight occurred when staff advisors, Mike Keenan and Ward Kramer along with Myer students, Rob Walters and Mike D'Abramo were invited to present a series of seminars. These were workshops on how to introduce the MUN in educational settings presented to an international conference, sponsored by the United Nations Association of the U.S.A. in New York City.
For several years, A. N. Myer ran a large 3-day, hotel-based MUN simulation, which attracted 400-500 participants. With an appropriate infrastructure built and with so many schools now running their own MUN programs, Mike Keenan and Ward Kramer, with assistance from the Ridgeway legal firm of Jones, Jamieson and Redekop, formed an umbrella organization, the Council on World Affairs. The annual conference is now into its 14th year, and is administered by COWA and secondary school graduates from schools throughout the entire region. The Council on World Affairs coordinates many other MUN-related activities throughout the Niagara region]. courtesywww.cowac.org/textabout.html)
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About populatoin of Kashmir... Again, the reference had been given from Human Rights Org. and BBC that it's NOT last 15 years but during 1940's that Muslims were in majority in Kashmir, and not the hindus. Ironically, it's hindus who later on moved there and started living there. Muslims were and still are in majority over there.
Regarding: Love even your enemies, I know Islam says the same thing that blood for blood but blessed are those who forgive, but I am talking in the sense of real life. We are not perfect and mind and ideas vary from person to person. Some stress out at certain level, some others at another. I believe so is the case with palestainians.
Re: double hmm!!!!!
They are still muslims... lol, just because they don't claim the site as a religious site doesn't mean there isn't a clear agenda and that site is clearly one sided... now if your going to go back in time, them HINDU at one time was the onlt faith worshipped in Kashmir, so the muslims should give it back... look at it this way... if the hindus started to take over in say Iran... cripes would the blood flow or what... we have seen this time and time again and you cannot deny that the muslims in large numbers push for a one world arab state...
yaali110
Unregistered User
(6/30/02 6:00 pm) Reply
lol for what ?
786/110
Asalamoalikum !
QUOTE: "They are still muslims... lol, just because they don't claim the site as a religious..."
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I do not understand what on earth was that lol for ?
The human rights websites ARE NOT operated by muslims. But leave that aside. Its really smart to declare that this site or that reference is one sided. Even when the authors are non-muslims and are writing in muslims favor, some people would just get away with ignoring them by saying that they are one-sided.
So, I think that you people give me a proof that SHOWS and claims that at one time Hinduism was the only faith in Kashmir.
You made that claim and now we need a proof. I strongly DISAGREE on this issue that at ANY time hinduism was the ONLY religion there. I would really appreciate any references or proofs in this regard.
Re: lol for what ?
First off it is a one sided site, anyone reading it can tell its done by muslims... its just like I can write a web page saying falsehoods about the muslims and not claim what faith im from, doesn't mean that the page wasn't or isnt one sided... the lol was because I couldn't see how you could believe such things and not seek out the truth in them... where are theses news reports by creditable news sources...
So, I think that you people give me a proof that SHOWS and claims that at one time Hinduism was the only faith in Kashmir.
You made that claim and now we need a proof. I strongly DISAGREE on this issue that at ANY time hinduism was the ONLY religion there.
Well first off not sure I even said that... BUT of the two Hindism was at one time the ONLY one of the two religions... for the region was hindu and had hindus WAY before mohammed EVER stepped foot on this earth... Hindism is way older then Islam and for you to say its not is foolish... SO of the two Hindism was there and Muslims where not, soooooooo you guys should back off...
yaali110
Unregistered User
(7/1/02 11:06 pm) Reply
reply !
786/110
Ok, forget the website thing. I cant convince you for now. Forgive me for that but maybe I'll try on that later.
About your claim:
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Quote: "...first off not sure I even said that... "
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Brother, you did ! Re-Read ur post. While talking about such issues we have to be sure, we should not be unsure of what we are saying.
The last post made me laugh! Since hinduism religion came before islam, so muslims should step back from the region. This is an example of fallacy! This is essentially NOT the way we can solve such an issue.
Please do not tell me about Hazrat Mohammed (saw), when He came here and when he was created. I know and want you to know too, that this is deep. I cannot brainwash you that this Universe is created for Mohammed (saw) & AhlulBayat (a.s). Similarly, you cant brainwash me about when did he step down on earth. Also, the question is not of being older. If a tradition being practised is obsolete, the new trend is the one to turn to. Otherwise, Judaism is the older one. Why dont christians (God forbid) become Jews or atleast make a decision to give them any land they want since they were here b4 anyone!
The answer is that ... this is not the solution. Its fallacy! Trying to answer something in a very wrong way.
The idea of giving land to the ones who were there before also does not make any sense when we go deeper into the history of Kashmir region. For everybody's information, a vast majority of muslims in South Asia is converted Muslims. The hindus who became muslims and etc. So, it's not that muslims invaded this area outta nowhere. "Islam started in this region the very day when the first hindu became a muslim."
Your point was that the Muslims have "rights" to Kashmir, because they were there first, so I pointed out that, in no way that is true as Hinduism is much older then Islam and was practiced in that region long before Mohammed stepped on this earth. You are right about the sites, unless its a news site or article of some nature, or each person scripture bases thoughts or thoughts of others you hold to be true there is a point of pointless, because anyone can make a website and claim its something official, when indeed its not.
Kash·mir [kįsh mr ] disputed territory in the northern part of the Indian subcontinent. All of the territory is claimed by India and Pakistan, and part of the territory is claimed by China. See also Jammu and Kashmir See also Kashmir, Azad; World English Dictionary
Kash·mir, Azad [kąsh meer ząd ] section of the disputed territory of Kashmir in the northern part of the Indian subcontinent that has been under Pakistani control since 1972; World English Dictionary
Kashmir, disputed territory in the northern part of the Indian subcontinent. Commonly known as Kashmir, the territory is bounded on the north by Afghanistan and China, on the east by China, on the south by the state of Himachal Pradesh and the state of Punjab in India, and on the west by the North-West Frontier Province and the Punjab Province of Pakistan.
Both India and Pakistan have claimed all of Kashmir since 1947, when they gained independence from Great Britain.
The territory has been divided along a cease-fire line since 1949. The Indian-controlled portion is organized as the state of Jammu and Kashmir. Pakistan administers the northern portion as the Northern Areas, and indirectly controls the extreme western portion as Azad (Free) Kashmir, which has an autonomous government. China controls a portion of the territory in the east. The capital of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir is Srinagar. The administrative center of Azad Kashmir is Muzaffarabad. Indian-controlled Kashmir has an area of 100,569 sq km (38,830 sq mi) and a 2001 population of 10,069,917. Pakistani-controlled Kashmir has an area of 78,932 sq km (30,476 sq mi) and a population (1985 estimate) of about 2.8 million. The area controlled by China covers about 42,735 sq km (16,500 sq mi).
Kashmir is an ancient area, deriving its name, according to tradition, from the Khasi, a people who lived in the northern mountains several centuries before the Christian era. The country was originally a stronghold of Hinduism; Buddhism was introduced about 245 BC. Beginning in the mid-14th century AD, Muslim sultans controlled the area for two centuries. Akbar, the Mughal emperor of Hindustan, conquered Kashmir between 1586 and 1592, and it became a part of the Mughal Empire. In 1819, after a period of Afghan rule extending from 1756, Kashmir was conquered by Ranjit Singh, the Sikh maharaja (Indian king or prince) of the Punjab. In 1846 Galub Singh, the ruler of Jammu, concluded a treaty with Britain, which by then dominated most of India, and was confirmed as ruler also of Kashmir. Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2002
Now there clearly shows that it was a Hindu nation at first. Not saying that because of that Hindus have all rights to it, just showing you that it was "The country was originally a stronghold of Hinduism;"
Now thats not a website but an encyclopedia of learning accepted and used in most major universities.
[Please do not tell me about Hazrat Mohammed (saw), when He came here and when he was created.]
Don't recall having said anything about either.
[Its fallacy! Trying to answer something in a very wrong way.]
YOUR the one that brought up that fact that until 1948 the Muslims had control of the land of Israel, all I did was pint out that if thats the case, then its the jews by default as they where there in why before Islam was made.
[The idea of giving land to the ones who were there before also does not make any sense when we go deeper into the history of Kashmir region. For everybody's information, a vast majority of muslims in South Asia is converted Muslims. The hindus who became muslims and etc. ]
Come on now, even you have to admit that in alot of regions if one doesnt convert to Islam its off with there heads and besides that there are WAYYYY more Hindus in Kashmar then muslims, as the text up there shows.
and here... Following the August 1947 partition of British India into Pakistan and the Republic of India, a small portion of the predominantly Muslim population of Kashmir demanded accession to Pakistan, a Muslim state. The reigning maharaja, Sir Hari Singh, a Hindu, resisted the pro-Pakistani movement. Pakistan invaded the area, after which the maharaja signed the Instrument of Accession to the Indian Union. Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2002
Shows just how the Muslims gained ground. Thats like Gaza demanding to join up back to back with the west bank or Egypt. And if Israel said no, jordan and Iraq attack Israel and "make it so" And that day very well could come.
Police in Indian-administered Kashmir say two people have been killed and another three wounded in a suspected militant attack on Hindu pilgrims.
The incident happened when a grenade was thrown at a taxi south of Srinagar on its way to the Amarnath cave shrine.
All the victims were pilgrims - except for one of the dead, who was the taxi driver.
The pilgrims came from the Indian states of Uttar Pradesh and West Bengal.
This is the first such incident since the annual pilgrimage to the cave shrine began earlier in July.
It happened in spite of heavy security arrangements all along the 350 kilometre-long route of the pilgrimage from the winter capital, Jammu, up to the cave temple.
In the past, such attacks have failed to deter the pilgrims from visiting the shrine.
At least 13 people were killed when suspected militants attacked the pilgrimage last year.
Tens of thousands of Hindus make their way up to the shrine of Lord Shiva at the Amarnath caves, some 14,000 feet (4,270m) above Jammu in the Himalayan mountains, every July and August.
More than 90,000 pilgrims from different parts of India have registered themselves for the pilgrimage this year. BBC News
So that shows that two things... one that there are indeed people wanting to worship in their own religion and two Muslims REFUSE to let them, THATS not even in the disputed region either, but because ISLAM says to destroy all temples, "which they had done to this very one in the past" they spread murder and terror.
They burned a bus load of Hindus trying to go to a temple in INDIA, a HINDU nation for petes sake. My point is this. #1 Muslims kill jews, Christians and Hindus. Jews and Christians for the most part have no conflict, Hindus and Jew have no conflicts for the most part, and Christians and Hindus have no conflicts for the most part... YET ISLAM seems to want to cause trouble with all of them.
You need to take a hard long look at the people and religion you yoke yourself with, Because the day all them Muslim nations stop attacking and killing each other, thay are going to call for a Jihad together on the world and your going to have to make a choice then, to do evil, or good.
Christians, true Christians believe in love thy enemy, and bless them that curse you and pray for them that hate you... Islam teaches the 5th way to Jihad, by the sword. WHICH really sounds like its from a Almighty God? Love or death and killing?
Re: reply !
It would really help if you guys could differential what i your words and what are the words you're replying to in your post. For example...
Quote: They burned a bus load of Hindus trying to go to a temple in INDIA, a HINDU nation for petes sake. My point is this. #1 Muslims kill jews, Christians and Hindus. Jews and Christians for the most part have no conflict, Hindus and Jew have no conflicts for the most part, and Christians and Hindus have no conflicts for the most part... YET ISLAM seems to want to cause trouble with all of them.
Now, I would write my response to this in the area below it.
Sorry to be a pain. Thanks!
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. Muslims DID NOT start that. Even the media agrees that crossborder terrorism/war started right after 1948. Israel and paletsine...both. Ok, after that, you are right that some countries declared war against Israel cuz they almost defeated the palestinians and took over their land. Now, lets make it clear that declaration of war on israel by some muslim nations was NOT illegal or resentful. It's law of the war. You make friends and foes. Like, usa, uk, china...all. Whenever a friend country of usa is in crisis, they support it..militarily or otherwise. We all know that whats right for one side is wrong for other side. So, is the case here. Israel, with her support from other countries, got into war with egypt, jordan and syria. Again, israel was the upper hand. They captured areas from egypt, syria and lot more from palestine. War was ended. Every country suffered her loss. Israel refused to give back the land it had captured from egypt, syria and palestine. 
Re: reply !
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