MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 476
(4/28/02 9:37 pm) Reply
Re: none
America doesn't equal Christianity, and frankly, doesn't usually represent Christian values in the world political scene.
I am not trying to sling mud, I hope you all understand. You only lose ground and get your hands dirty if you do. ;)
I am just pointing out that as I understand the teachings of Islam there is an "ends justifies the means" ethical philosophy. All the the will of Allah, anything good done towards the glory of Allah is justified by the very fact that its ends was the glorification of Allah...even if that means retributive justice on those who would dare stand in your way (the ends justifies the means).
I am still not sure about Kismit and hope someone will explain it to me. Thank you.
-J
S.D.G
yaali110
Unregistered User
(4/29/02 1:46 am) Reply
Re: MonkeySage
786/110
Asalamoalikum !
Yeah, monkeessage, there are a huge count of verses in Quran that condemn the acts of terrorism. And I mean it when i say a huge count. Allah has explicitly said in Quran (Koran) that never fight and never declare war on those who do not harm you, be them muslims or non-muslims. Extremists in Islam as well as the critics against Islam usually refer to this verse to justify their acts of terrorism: "Kill them [enemies] wherever you find them!" (Koran 4: 89). "
But they, intentionally or unintentionally, skip the very next verse that follows this order. The very next verse begins with:
"Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God DOES NOT ALLOW you to harm them" (Koran 4: 90).
Also another verse:
".....WE DECREED for the Children of Israel that ANYONE who murders any person WHO HAD NOT committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. Our messengers went to them with clear proofs and revelations, but most of them, after all this, are still transgressing. " (Koran 5:32)
These are just two verses from Koran that condemn the unlawful killings and atrocities .
I'll post a full article that was actually written by a christian. But that article is very good and informative. The author is a lady and she has studied Koran in detail and concluded that Islam strictly forbids to spread chaos and terrorism on Earth. The article has many Quranic verses that make it clear that Islam and Quran are against unlawful killings. Islam clearly differentiates true Jihad from "false Jihad".
Hope these two verses were helpful. The article will be posted right after this reply.
Thank you!
wa'salam
Asad Ali.
yaali110
Unregistered User
(4/29/02 1:51 am) Reply
Hey! I am sorry
786/110
Asalamoalikum !
Dear brother MonkeeSage,
I am sorry. I just posted my message and realized that I have misspelled MonkeeSage, in my subject heading. Trust me, I'd never do that on purpose. Hope u understand. Sorry for the mistake again.
Regards and apologies,
Asad Ali.
yaali110
Unregistered User
(4/29/02 2:10 am) Reply
The article
786/110
Asalamoalikum !
Here is the article that I promised. Reading it will reveal that how peaceful the true Islam is, and how firmly does it deny the terrorism.
TIME.COM (TIME MAGAZINE'S WEBSITE)
October 1, 2001 Vol. 158 No. 15
The True, Peaceful Face Of Islam
BY KAREN ARMSTRONG
There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, and Islam is the world's fastest-growing religion. If the evil carnage we witnessed on Sept. 11 were typical of the faith, and Islam truly inspired and justified such violence, its growth and the increasing presence of Muslims in both Europe and the U.S. would be a terrifying prospect. Fortunately, this is not the case.
The very word Islam, which means "surrender," is related to the Arabic salam, or peace. When the Prophet Muhammad brought the inspired scripture known as the Koran to the Arabs in the early 7th century A.D., a major part of his mission was devoted precisely to bringing an end to the kind of mass slaughter we witnessed in New York City and Washington. Pre-Islamic Arabia was caught up in a vicious cycle of warfare, in which tribe fought tribe in a pattern of vendetta and countervendetta. Muhammad himself survived several assassination attempts, and the early Muslim community narrowly escaped extermination by the powerful city of Mecca. The Prophet had to fight a deadly war in order to survive, but as soon as he felt his people were probably safe, he devoted his attention to building up a peaceful coalition of tribes and achieved victory by an ingenious and inspiring campaign of nonviolence. When he died in 632, he had almost single-handedly brought peace to war-torn Arabia.
Because the Koran was revealed in the context of an all-out war, several passages deal with the conduct of armed struggle. Warfare was a desperate business on the Arabian Peninsula. A chieftain was not expected to spare survivors after a battle, and some of the Koranic injunctions seem to share this spirit. Muslims are ordered by God to "slay [enemies] wherever you find them!" (4: 89). Extremists such as Osama bin Laden like to quote such verses but do so selectively. They do not include the exhortations to peace, which in almost every case follow these more ferocious passages: "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them" (4: 90).
In the Koran, therefore, the ONLY PERMISSIBLE WAR IS ONE OF SELF-DEFENSE. Muslims may not begin hostilities (2: 190). Warfare is always evil, but sometimes you have to fight in order to avoid the kind of persecution that Mecca inflicted on the Muslims (2: 191; 2: 217) or to preserve decent values (4: 75; 22: 40). The Koran quotes the Torah, the Jewish scriptures, which permits people to retaliate eye for eye, tooth for tooth, but like the Gospels, the Koran suggests that it is meritorious to forgo revenge in a spirit of charity (5: 45). Hostilities must be brought to an end as quickly as possible and must cease the minute the enemy sues for peace (2: 192-3).
Islam is not addicted to war, and jihad is not one of its "pillars," or essential practices. The primary meaning of the word jihad is not "holy war" but "struggle." It refers to the difficult effort that is needed to put God's will into practice at every level--personal and social as well as political. A very important and much quoted tradition has Muhammad telling his companions as they go home after a battle, "We are returning from the lesser jihad [the battle] to the greater jihad," the far more urgent and momentous task of extirpating wrongdoing from one's own society and one's own heart.
Islam did not impose itself by the sword. In a statement in which the Arabic is extremely emphatic, the Koran insists, "There must be NO COERCION IN matters of FAITH!" (2: 256). Constantly Muslims are enjoined to respect Jews and Christians, the "People of the Book," who worship the same God (29: 46). In words quoted by Muhammad in one of his last public sermons, God tells all human beings, "O people! We have formed you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another" (49: 13)--not to conquer, convert, subjugate, revile or slaughter but to reach out toward others with intelligence and understanding.
So why the suicide bombing, the hijacking and the massacre of innocent civilians? Far from being endorsed by the Koran, this killing violates some of its most sacred precepts. But during the 20th century, the militant form of piety often known as fundamentalism erupted in every major religion as a rebellion against modernity. Every fundamentalist movement I have studied in Judaism, Christianity and Islam is convinced that liberal, secular society is determined to wipe out religion. Fighting, as they imagine, a battle for survival, fundamentalists often feel justified in ignoring the more compassionate principles of their faith. But in amplifying the more aggressive passages that exist in all our scriptures, they distort the tradition.
It would be as grave a mistake to see Osama bin Laden as an authentic representative of Islam as to consider James Kopp, the alleged killer of an abortion provider in Buffalo, N.Y., a typical Christian or Baruch Goldstein, who shot 29 worshipers in the Hebron mosque in 1994 and died in the attack, a true martyr of Israel. The vast majority of Muslims, who are horrified by the atrocity of Sept. 11, must reclaim their faith from those who have so violently hijacked it.
Karen Armstrong has written many books on religion, including Islam: A Short History, published last year by Modern Library
Re: not at all
Well no not really... I mean Jesus preached love all even your enemies... Mohammed said... if I'm correct on the matter... If they don't submit to Allah put them to the sword... also... you'll note the Muslims laws are... VERY brutal... even chopping of a hand if someone steal... and the beheadings... heh... and oh ya, muslims not only hate the jews but Hindus as well... they burned a train load of them.
Re: not true
syedaliamir Hitler was far from being a Christian... far from it... to be a Christian means to follow Christ and his teaching... not murder, rape and plunder.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 477
(4/29/02 12:51 pm) Reply
Re: not at all
Thank you for the information Asad Ali. Really, though, it just begs the question I was trying to ask.
OK. Quran teaches "no war but for self-defense." Now, if hitler was Muslim and killed millions of Jews in the name of Allah, who says that he is wrong? If you ask him, he would tell you that Jews are a danger to society; they take up room and food that important people need, and they are dishonest.
Now, if that is Hitler's idea of the Jews, then he can say they are "attacking" in secret and trying to break down the government and cause anarchy. Thus, it would be self-defense to stop their evil plot in Hitler's eyes.
This is just one example, I can think of others. I fail to see how a Muslim could condemn Hitler, when if he was doing the same thing to strengthen Islam instead of 3rd reich, he would be hero. Please tell me how you can condemn a man like that?
Can you please explain the idea of Kismit to me, please. Thank you.
YOU don't count Jesus as devine... nor the Lord... these alone make you an anti-christ by the word of God... second... ummmm yes I know what the quran says about Christians... well it says two different things... twice it says we're okay and then twice says were not cool.
Quran 5.14 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will God show them what it is they have done.
Quran 5.51 ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.
YET TURNS RIGHT AROUND AND CONTRADICTS IT'S SELF.
Quran 5 82.Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
Quran Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
12 April: A suicide bomb attack at a bus stop in West Jerusalem, kills at least six people and injures about 50 more.
10 April A suicide attack on a bus travelling near the Israeli city of Haifa kills at least eight people and injures dozens more.
1 April: A car bomb explodes in West Jerusalem killing the bomber and critically injuring a policeman inspecting the vehicle.
31 March: Bomber attacks restaurant in Haifa, northern Israel, killing himself and 14 Israeli Jews and Arabs. On the same day, another bomber kills himself and wounds four people in an attack on an office for paramedics at the Jewish settlement of Efrat, south of Bethlehem.
30 March: A suicide attack on a Tel Aviv restaurant leaves the bomber dead and 30 Israelis wounded.
29 March: A woman bomber kills herself and two others at a Jerusalem supermarket.
27 March: In the Israeli resort of Netanya, a bomber blows himself up at a hotel, killing 22 Israelis celebrating Passover.
26 March: Three injured in car bomb blast near a shopping centre in Jerusalem.
22 March: Bomber kills himself and wounds an Israeli soldier at a checkpoint at Salem, on Israel's border with the West Bank.
21 March: At least two people killed and more than 20 injured in suspected suicide bomb attack in the centre of West Jerusalem.
20 March: Seven people killed in a suicide bomb attack on a bus carrying mainly Arab labourers near the northern town of Umm el-Fahem.
9 March: At least 11 people killed and 50 injured in suicide bomb attack on busy cafe in west Jerusalem, near the official residence of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
5 March: One person killed and several others injured in suicide bomb attack on a bus at Afula central bus station.
2 March: Nine people killed including two babies, and 57 injured after suicide bomb attack in an ultra-Orthodox area of Jerusalem.
18 February: Car bomber detonates device at a checkpoint, killing himself and a policeman. 16 February: Two teenagers killed and 30 people injured in suicide bomb attack on a Pizzeria in Karnei Shomron.
15 February: Three soldiers killed after powerful roadside bomb destroys an Israeli tank.
27 January: Two people - one a female suicide bomber - die in an attack in a busy shopping area of central Jerusalem.
2001
2 December: A Palestinian suicide bomber blows up a bus in the northern coastal city of Haifa, killing 15 people and wounding more than 100 others.
1 December: Twelve people, including two suicide bombers, are killed in an attack on a Jerusalem shopping centre.
29 November: At least four people die in a suicide bomb attack on a bus in the northern town of Hadera. Islamic Jihad claim responsibility.
8 November: A Palestinian suicide bomber blows himself up in the West Bank town of Baka al-Sharkieh injuring two Israeli border guards.
9 September: Three people are killed in a suicide bombing at a crowded railway station in the town of Naharia. The bomber is the first Israeli Arab to carry out such an attack.
4 September: Bomber disguised as a bearded ultra-Orthodox Jew injures 13 when he blows himself up in central Jerusalem. More than 70 people were injured in the Jerusalem blast.
7 October: A suicide bomber kills himself and an Israeli kibbutz member at the wheel of a car in the northern town of Beit Shean.
12 August: Suicide bomb attack on restaurant near Haifa. Bomber dies, up to 20 people injured.
9 August: Fifteen people are killed and about 90 others injured in a suicide attack on a busy restaurant in the heart of Jerusalem. Hamas admits responsibility.
2 June: Suicide bomb attack on a disco in Tel Aviv leaves 21 people dead and more than 60 others injured. Islamic Jihad claim responsibility.
28 March: Three people killed and several others severely injured in a nail bomb attack near a bus stop close to the central Israeli town of Kfar Saba. Hamas admits responsibility.
1 March: One person is killed and nine injured in an explosion in northern Israel. A group calling itself The Battalions of Return says it was responsible. Bomb squad inspects wreckage in Jerusalem
8 February: Two car bomb explosions in the heart of the ultra-orthodox area of West Jerusalem. No-one was killed in the first explosion since the election of right-wing Likud leader Ariel Sharon.
1 January: Car bomb explodes in an ultra-Orthodox neighbourhood of west Jerusalem. One woman injured.
2000
28 December: At least one bomb explodes on a bus near Tel Aviv, wounding 13 Israelis.
22 November: Two Israelis killed and 55 wounded by a car bomb that explodes during the rush-hour in northern town of Hadera.
2 November: Two Israelis killed by a powerful car bomb at central Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda market, a frequent target of attacks. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack - which came more than a month after Palestinians began a new uprising against Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza following the collapse of peace talks.
1998
6 November: A car bomb at the same market kills two suicide bombers from Islamic Jihad and wounds 21.
1997
4 September: Explosion in west Jerusalem kills eight, including three bombers, and wounds more than 170.
30 July: Two militants blow themselves up in the Mahane Yehuda market, killing themselves and 16 shoppers.
31 March: Suicide bomber kills himself and three women at a Tel Aviv cafe.
1996
4 March: Tel Aviv bomb kills 13.
3 March: Suicide bomb on a Jerusalem bus kills 19.
25 February: Suicide bombings in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv killed 26. Militant Hamas group claims responsibility.
1995
21 August: Bomb on a Jerusalem bus kills five and wounds 69.
24 July: Unidentified suicide bomber kills six passengers and himself on a bus outside Tel Aviv.
9 April: Islamic Jihad suicide bomber attacks military convoy in Gaza, killing seven soldiers and an American tourist.
22 January: Two Islamic Jihad militants blow themselves up amid a group of soldiers near Netanya, killing 21.
1994
11 November: Islamic Jihad militant sets off bomb near Netzarim settlement in Gaza, killing three officers.
19 October: Hamas militant sets off bomb killing 23 on a Tel Aviv bus.
13 April: Hamas bomb kills five and injures 30 in Hadera north of Tel Aviv.
6 April: Hamas car bomb in Afula kills eight and wounds 44. Hamas says attack was revenge for killing of 29 Palestinians by a settler.
Looks to me as if the Muslims are killing, not trying to achieve peace. What does your holy book say about killing innocent women and children? Or killing people who are not your enemies? Or, are US citizens your enemies?
George W. Bush knows that Islam is a religion of peace because Sheikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi said so. Two months after the September 11 terrorist attacks, the President told the United Nations that Tantawi, "the Sheikh of Al-Azhar University, the world's oldest Islamic institution of higher learning, declared that terrorism is a disease, and that Islam prohibits killing innocent civilians."
Yet unfortunately for Bush and others who trumpeted Tantawi's words around the globe last winter, this sheikh whom the BBC called "the highest spiritual authority for nearly a billion Sunni Muslims" has now changed his tune. As liberals say about conservatives who start voting for big government and high taxes, Tantawi has grown in office.
The Middle East Media Research Institute reports that on April 4, an Arabic-language website connected to Al-Azhar stated that Tantawi has "demanded that the Palestinian people, of all factions, intensify the martyrdom operations [that is, suicide bombings] against the Zionist enemy, and described the martyrdom operations as the highest form of Jihad operations. He says that the young people executing them have sold Allah the most precious thing of all."
Islamic law, the good sheikh maintained, demanded the blood of non-combatants. He "emphasized that every martyrdom operation against any Israeli, including children, women, and teenagers, is a legitimate act according to [Islamic] religious law, and an Islamic commandment, until the people of Palestine regain their land and cause the cruel Israeli aggression to retreat..."
Tantawi, Bush's imam of peace, thus joins Yasir Arafat in the Hall of Fame of Islamic dissemblers. Both are extremely adept at telling the Western media what it wants to hear - and then doing likewise for the Arabic press, contradictions be damned. Like Arafat, the wily Tantawi seems to have mastered this art long before September 11. As far back as 1998, he declared that "it is every Muslim, Palestinian and Arab's right to blow himself up in the heart of Israel, an honorable death is better than a life of humiliation." This right is, in fact, a religious duty: "All religious laws have demanded the use of force against the enemy and fighting against those who stand by Israel; there is no escape from fighting, from Jihad, and from [self-] defense, and whoever refrains from such things is not a believer."
Maybe Tantawi's latest change of heart was dictated by his faith. Unfortunately for those who want to believe that pro-terrorist Islam is an aberrant form of the religion of peace, the foundational text of Islam is, well, soft on terrorism. The Qur'an, which Muslims believe to be the perfect words of Almighty God, tells believers that "when you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly" (Sura 47:4).
This is just one of the verses that may have moved Tantawi to throw in his lot with the terrorists. Others include Sura 48:29: "Muhammad is God's Apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another," and Sura 9:5: "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them."
Tantawi's switch may also have been inspired by the example of the Prophet Muhammad himself; traditions about Muhammad's words and deeds are for Muslims second in importance only to the Qur'an. According to George Washington University Professor Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Muslims revere Muhammad as "the perfection of both the norm of the human collectivity and the human individual, the norm for the perfect social life and the prototype and guide for the individual's spiritual life."
This perfect Islamic man was a man of war. He never shrank from the use of force. He ordered his enemies murdered, and assured his followers that they incurred no guilt by carrying out these orders. While Jesus rebuked his disciples for asking Him if they should call down fire from Heaven upon a disbelieving village (St. Luke 9:51-55), Muhammad several times cursed those who rejected his message. An entire Sura, or chapter, of the Qur'an is devoted to cursing Muhammad's disbelieving uncle and wife: "May the hands of Abu Lahab perish! May he himself perish! Nothing shall his wealth and gains avail him. He shall be burnt in a flaming fire, and his wife, laden with faggots, shall have a rope of fibre around her neck!" (Sura 111:1-5).
Tantawi, then, seems by embracing terrorism to have done nothing other than become more true to his faith. How many more such spiritual homecomings among Islamic "moderates" will it take for the multiculturalist establishment to admit the true nature of Islam?
yaali110
Unregistered User
(4/29/02 3:30 pm) Reply
Reply
786/110
Asalamoalikum !
"Muslims not only hate Jews but hindus as well !"
This comment is again irrelevant. It's no different from me saying "Christians not only hate jews but also Muslims." Proof: Christians in palestine, syria, labenon, pakistan (though in minority but more than 99% of them all) , christians in other middle eastern countries, many christians in the USA ... are against the Israel.
I know it does not make any sense to blame christians of hating all jews when they just hate the israeli zionists and NOT ALL jews. So is the case with Muslims. We DO NOT hate all jews. We have to remember that jews are different from zionists. We Muslims, like any other human, hate the wrong people. Media is what depicts the things as the war of religions.
About that photo of burning train ? Again, no point in believing without complete satisfaction. What if someone starts claiming that Christians hate muslims cuz in Afghanistan and in Iraq, they killed many innocent civilians, as well. Is that enough to prove that ALL christians hate ALL Muslims? You looked at a train photo. Have you looked at the other photos too. Here:
www.shianews.com/hi/asia/...001609.php
What happened in Afghanistan (killing of innocents alongwith culprits) SHOULD NOT have happened. But thats what we call Collateral Damage. Not right but happens sometimes, unwillingly.
Regarding Mohammed's (saw) saying: that was not what he said. A picture is worth 1000 words and actions speak more than words.
Mohammed (saw) nad his followers were tortured mentally and physically by the adversaries while they were in Makkah (Mecca). Mohammed had to migrate to Medina in order to save his people. Yet, shortly after 629 C.E the Muslims under Mohammed's command returned to Makkah with a might. The Mecca was conquered without a person getting killed. Mohammed and his fellows still remembered the atrocities of their enemies. But still, Mohammed (saw) in the hour of triumph fargave every evil suffered. 10 years ago these people had treated him cruelly and made them to take refuge with strangers. This is an excerpt from what Mohammed said on the day when he came back to Makkah:
"I speak to you in the same words as Joseph spoke to his brothers. This day, there is no reproof against you: Go your way, for you are free."
This announcement was received with great joy and applause."
This is what Muslims are taught by Mohammed (saw).
In other battles too, He kept saying the same thing. '...and be aware, never kill an innocent...'
Hope this was helpful.
Thank you
Regards,
Asad Ali.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 482
(4/29/02 3:46 pm) Reply
Re: Reply
Asad Ali,
While I can appreciate the general tone of language such as:
" '...and be aware, never kill an innocent...' "
There is a deeper issue I would like you to address.
How is it that you define "innocent" and how does Kismit ("it was meant to be"--i.e., All is the will of Allah) fit into making that value judgment in Islam?
Please answer as you are able, thank you.
-J
S.D.G
yaali110
Unregistered User
(4/29/02 4:00 pm) Reply
Re: self-defense
786/110
Asalamoalikum !
Yeah Monkeesage! I know what you are trying to say.
Self-defense is the nature's oldest law
Now correct me if I am wrong, please.
You are asking what if Hitler or anyone wants to attack a particular group of people just for acheiving his personal means ? How would we condemn that if he pretends that it was for self-defense ?
Well! one who uses name of islam of justify his wrong acts is also addressed in Quran. They are called "Munafiqeen" in Quran and quran condemns their ways. "In the people, there are some who say we believe in God and (his teachings) and judgement day, while they are not (what they say)."
Jihad is a very complicated subject and not as easy as 1+1. If hitler or a person gives his justifications that prove that his people are being oppressed by the enemies, even then he CANNOT declare war. He has to warn the enemies, so if they have any arguments or justifications, they can talk. But if that proves useless, ONLY THEN it's OBLIGATORY to fight for ones right.
More help at: al-islam.org/short/jihad/index.html
About Jesus (a.s) preaching love even for his enemies: In my recent post I already cleared that Mohammed never hurt his enemies for nothing, neither did he allow anyone to.
Now, Jesus (a.s) too, NEVER EVER said that love your enemies, no matter what, Period. Jesus (a.s) was a messenger of Peace. We have to differentiate between Peace and surrender. Peace is NOT THE SAME as Surrender.
If some nation is being persecuted ruthlessly by some people, it is obligatory to raise your voice against it and fight for your rights. Why? cuz YOU are, in that sense, Fighting FOR PEACE and NOT WAR. They are persecuting you so they are enemies of peace. You fight them means you are fighting enemies of Peace.
If someone invades your land, your property and you don't take any action by thinking that we must not pick up guns for the sake of peace and let God deal with them...then this is Surrender NOT Peace. You are boosting up your enemies courage and helping them to go for more. In order to seek Allah's help, it's mandatory that you take action rather than to surrender. And this is precisely why Muslims and christinas are fighting against zionists in Palestine, and this is pecisely why USA retaliated against terrorism in NY.
I hope this was helpful.
And brother ! what do you want to know about Kismet ?
I mean tell me in what sense. Thank you.
Regards 'n' salam,
Asad Ali.
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 484
(4/29/02 4:38 pm) Reply
Re: self-defense
My friend Asad Ali,
But issues that are so strait-fowards, often conceal deeper meanings. You know that Islam has many philosophers and scientists, and many politicians, who study these issues. So I see my question of Hitler being relevant. What if Caliph or Imam says that "Jews are the reason why all these bad things happen, and God wants to bless but we keep trying to make peace with the Jews, we must kill the Jews that the will of Allah may prevail." Who is to tell him "no, you are wrong"? Can the Hindu tell him he is wrong? No, he can only tell him that he doesn't like it, not that it is absolutely, morally wrong. Can the Christian? Yes, he can say that person is absolutely, morally wrong. Can the follower of Isla? I am asking you....how?
Regarding Kismit, its goes with the first question...if all was meant to be, by Allah's will, so that there are really no secondary causes (i.e., no "free" agents), then how can anyone be condemned? The ends (Allah's will) will always justify the means (mass murder, etc.), will it not? I don't understand how the idea of condemning any person when their actions only futher Allah's will, goes with the idea that all is kismit.
Insh'al-MaseeHu 'Easa.
-J
S.D.G
aliamir Registered User
Posts: 2
(4/29/02 8:42 pm) Reply
I Got Proof!
I very open-minded christian has given me quotes from the bible showing that violence acts are not condemned by christians. He gave me these quotes because I'm not that educated in the christian religion myself. Can you believe it, a christian gave me these quotes? He is indeed a very open-minded person who see's the muslim side aswell. May Allah bless him.
“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)
"Do not think that I have come to send peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" (Matthew 10:34-35)
Also the Old Testament (Before Jesus):
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-1
aliamir Registered User
Posts: 3
(4/29/02 8:45 pm) Reply
Re: I Got Proof!
I meant "A" not I in the first sentence i wrote.
yaali110
Unregistered User
(4/29/02 9:02 pm) Reply
Kismet ?
786/110
Asalamoalikum !
Oh, now I see what you are talking about. Yeah! Kismet means fate. But the very critical concept is defined in different ways. I know you are refering to some muslims called "wahhabi" who interpret it as "everything is from God and nothing from us". I am talking about "shiai" and "sunni" sect of Islam. We believe in Kismet but in very different way. Maybe this example will help you understand our way of defining Kismet:
A person asked Imam Ali (a.s) about Kismet. He wanted to know that if everything is from Allah or we are capable of doing something,too.
Imam Ali (a.s) gave a very interesting answer. He asked that guy to raise his right hand, as he did Imam Ali (a.s) asked him to do the same with his left arm and he did.
Then Ali (a.s) asked him to lift his one foot off the ground, he did. Now, Imam Ali (a.s) asked him to lift his other foot too. He was at a loss and said "I can't. It's impossible!" At this Ali (a.s) replied. So, is the case with fate. You ARE ABLE to do somethings while few things are beyond our control.
The nutshell: "We can't get away with everything, saying it was will of Allah".
About your question what if someone tags jews as evils and orders to kill them in order to prevail Allah's will: I already cited many verses that tell that Jihad is not just to kill people. Innocents are, in every way, not to be harmed. Trust me no one has tagged Jews or hidus or all muslims or christians as WRONG AND TO BE KILLED.
And one more thing brother, you made a comment in ur post that:
"What if Caliph or Imam says that "Jews are the reason why all these bad things happen, and God wants to bless but we keep trying to make peace with the Jews, we must kill the Jews that the will of Allah may prevail." Who is to tell him "no, you are wrong"? Can the Hindu tell him he is wrong? No, he can only tell him that he doesn't like it, not that it is absolutely, morally wrong. Can the Christian? Yes, he can say that person is absolutely, morally wrong. Can the follower of Isla? I am asking you....how?"
I am afraid I dont understand your question fully. But if you explain me how a christian can say that this is wrong maybe I'll get a clear fix on your standpoint and be in a better position to address your question
Thank you for being open to discussions.
salam and regards,
Asad Ali
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 488
(4/29/02 9:32 pm) Reply
Re: I Got Proof!
Luke 19:26-27 is a prophecy through praying, the implied object of the words "...bring them here..." ("You") being God the Father; it is not a commandment to Christians.
"...bring hither, and slay [them] before me; which had its accomplishment in the destruction of Jerusalem, when multitudes of them were slain with the sword, both with their own, and with their enemies; and to this the parable has a special respect, and of which Christ more largely discourses in this chapter; see Luke 19:41..." (Gill; Exposition of the New Testament).
Matthew 10:34-35 is talking about the moral division that His doctrine brings. People will have to love Him more than all these of even their own house in order to truly be His disciples (vss. 36-38, Luke 14:26-27).
Numbers 31:16-18 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
This is divine judgment. Israel was commanded to destroy the inhabitants of Midian, notice (vss. 9-18), that Moses was angry for not destroying all. It was not a matter of spreading the religion of Judaism, it was Israel being used as a tool by God. this is not how Islam has historically operated. Islam has generally said that all will be put to death who do not confess Allah is the only God and Mohommad is His servant.
Two different purposes. One the purpose of man trying to force their religion. One the purpose of God in judging nations.
God's purpose is always just and righteous in judgment, no matter what tool He uses to accomplish it.
Even if we granted that Israel did evil (which I do not believe), or if we use the example of the sinful Babylonians being used to bring judgment on the Assyrians; Notice that God is able to bring evil in His providence, but He never agrees to it, and holds those who do evil accountable for their own evil according to the Bible, because they freely chose to sin, having true freedom of choice, even though He allows it for His own purpose:
Matthew 18:7 Woe to the world because its offenses! It is a necessity for the offenses to come, yet woe to that man through whom the offense comes!
-J
S.D.G
MonkeeSage Registered User
Posts: 489
(4/29/02 9:59 pm) Reply
Re: Kismet ?
Thank you Asad Ali, for the explanation, that helps to make things more clear.
A person asked Imam Ali (a.s) about Kismet. He wanted to know that if everything is from Allah or we are capable of doing something,too.
Imam Ali (a.s) gave a very interesting answer. He asked that guy to raise his right hand, as he did Imam Ali (a.s) asked him to do the same with his left arm and he did.
Then Ali (a.s) asked him to lift his one foot off the ground, he did. Now, Imam Ali (a.s) asked him to lift his other foot too. He was at a loss and said "I can't. It's impossible!" At this Ali (a.s) replied. So, is the case with fate. You ARE ABLE to do somethings while few things are beyond our control.
The nutshell: "We can't get away with everything, saying it was will of Allah".
That is a very good insight by Imam Ali. There are secondary causes which are in operation in the plan of God. But I do not understand how he can say, or even how a Sunni can say kismit and still say there is some responsibility.
Mu farakta is that nothing in this world can be likened to Allah. Allah transceneds all that happens in creation (this is why He can have no Son, He is too glorious [transcendent] to come down to human level).
How can He allow for human freedom?
When Allah knows all things before they happen in time and all is kismit, then man cannot do something else except what Allah knows he will do, or else Allah doesn't know all things. If Allah knows all things, because He transcends time and all creation, and man can only do what Allah knows man will do, how can man be responsible, for all is kismit...
Am I wrong in saying that? I do not understand it any other way. Please explan more.
Again, also my friend, you say no killing innocents, but the definition of "innocent" is subject to change unless you can show me a verse that tells who are innocent too, otherwise it can change with man's opinions.
"What if Caliph or Imam says that "Jews are the reason why all these bad things happen, and God wants to bless but we keep trying to make peace with the Jews, we must kill the Jews that the will of Allah may prevail." Who is to tell him "no, you are wrong"? Can the Hindu tell him he is wrong? No, he can only tell him that he doesn't like it, not that it is absolutely, morally wrong. Can the Christian? Yes, he can say that person is absolutely, morally wrong. Can the follower of Isla? I am asking you....how?"
In other words: How can you condemn a person who redefines the word "innocent" to mean everyone except Jews and says; "Jews are the reason why all these bad things happen, and God wants to bless but we keep trying to make peace with the Jews, we must kill the Jews that the will of Allah may prevail."
A Hindu has no basis to condemn but their own personal opinions, according to them all is an illusion anyways (maya).
A Christian has Scripture. They can say at all times and places that it is wrong to judge and single person except on their own merits.
What basis can the Muslim use, that is my question to you...what basis, especially if all was meant to be?
-J
S.D.G
aliamir Registered User
Posts: 4
(4/30/02 8:03 am) Reply
please answer
As for you question, I'll let Asad answer this one, lol, because he knows more then I do.
But please answer this:
Can you please explain to me how the quotes I put above are possible, because it seems to me like christianity invokes violence? Explaination would be appreciated.
Re: Islam
Re: Islam
I Got Proof!
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