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Ladyeevil Keeper of the Wing at St. Anne's for the Nuts for Nathaniel
DNMF#2
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Posts: 537
(10/13/03 6:31 pm) Reply
In celebration, the NM discussion
Quote:I mean, he was just laying it bare. His need was sooo extreme. And despite some of the things he did to get her it was not the "stalker-I-am-gonna-get-you-at-all-cost" obsession. Because he still tried not to hurt her. YOu know what it reminded me of? An abused woman. They get the crap kicked out of them and they just live for the moment when their man shows that sliver of kindness. They want the abuse to stop, but don't want to end their relationship to do it. Because they still love this person, they see all this possibility in this person that treats them like garbage. I mean his feelings were so palpable I felt that I could hold them in my hand. Am I rambling? Oh god just tell me to shut up if i am not making any sense.
Palpable... yes.. its was the ONLY thing about this storyline worth watching, and was it ever worth it.. AL's reaching to the universe for his place, and only touching Jen... yup. It wasn't the love story of a lifetime that would make you an Al fan then.. it was that part of Al that anyone who's ever looked to someone to fill the void would get... I talked about how Al was able to let go of Jen becasue he wanted more out of life, and I believe that NM played him that way, even back when he looked to Jen. He really thought she was special, and he saw something in her, but unfortunately, the way Jen was being played.. made it difficult to follow. I think Jessica Morris would have done well to show Jen's humanity, even as she did the things she did... Story falls flat because of it. I never considered that it was a kind of abused sort of codependency issue... Al wasn't abused or anything,but abandoned. I think it would have made more sense if Jen DID have things about her that was that good, like her willingness to sacrafice herself for him. What Al does cmme from someplace that is dark, to obsess that way, and even as he tried to justify himself as someone who isn't trying to hurt her, he manipulated her time and again to get what HE WANTED.. what HE wanted... it was never about her, but why did he choose her? Jen, petite, kick butt and seemed loving, and not being truly loved by Cristian... and Al wanted to fix what was wrong inside himself by repeating the past... if only his father had looked out for Gabrielle the way he would do for Jen... its what Jen represented, not Jen herself... real Jen, whom he was never attracted to.
Ladyeevil Keeper of the Wing at St. Anne's for the Nuts for Nathaniel
DNMF#2
Smitten Kitten
Posts: 539
(10/13/03 6:44 pm) Reply
Erotica versus Daytime
Quote:Have you ever seen a movie called "The Secretary"? It is w/ Maggie Gyllenhal and James Spader. I usually like stuff like that. So as much as I love the Diner and soaps they can be a little lite for my taste sometime. The fan fics make up for it some though.
And to think.. I thought that's what fan fiction is for!!!
All those dirty dark things they can't show you on daytime.. where we would have gone if the lunatics were REALLY running the asylum. I tried to keep mine a little tame this time, but even Eevil Lite, is still a bit eevil.
Real life doesn't give you much opportunity to live out such fantasies. I swear sometimes I'm better off with my fictional men, than with the best of the lot in real life. I guess I'm spoiled. Up until a couple years ago when I gained the weight, I could have any guy I wanted. It gets old, or you have to go into a strange world like that of.. yes.. Secretary, and the like.. those are boundaries that you have to be careful about... once you go over.. theres no turning back.
Ladyeevil Keeper of the Wing at St. Anne's for the Nuts for Nathaniel
DNMF#2
Smitten Kitten
Posts: 540
(10/13/03 9:47 pm) Reply
ORDINARY SINNER is available on DVD now!!!
I haven't done a search in a couple weeks, but it came up..
You can buy it for about $18... that's what I got it for, plus s/h\
Ciao America still doesn't show as being something available for purchase.. only the book and Ciao! Manhattan, not sure of the connection but its supposed to be connected.
Char
Ladyeevil Keeper of the Wing at St. Anne's for the Nuts for Nathaniel
DNMF#2
Smitten Kitten
Posts: 541
(10/13/03 10:02 pm) Reply
Re: Al sexist?
Quote:Char, I am in no way comparing Todd to Al. Al has had some emotional problems. Truly nothing other people don't deal with: inferiority issues, low sense of self worth, abandonment,etc. Todd is truly deviant. The only thing I found enjoyable about that man was RH portrayal of him. But Todd is an incredibly sick, violent man. And he can't be fixed-no matter who loves him. That is why eventually a new actor had to be cast to makeover the character. RH's portrayal and Todd's history made it clear that there is no redeeming this man.
I am the one doing the comparison. I think there is something valid about comparison of these two. I know that the scene that made me go from "Al is intense and interesting to watch" to "wild for Al" had to do with him backing Natalie to the wall, and for an old Todder like me... it made me wonder what deviant thing is stirring inside me. I had to wonder.
I am in complete agreement about the differences, who is redeemable, who wouldn't cross certain lines, what their motivations are, what their histories tell about the mistakes they will repeat... but they BOTH intimidate women.
Al did not appear turned on by it, or getting off on it, the way Todd did. Todd took pleasure in his intimidation (and in the case of Marty, rape) because there was hate running through his veins. With Al, it like... "I'm not gonna put on my kid gloves just because you are a woman. You are playing a messed up game, and I'm giving it as good as I get it" Al wasn't a lap dog.. oh no.. he was this powerful force, and if I were Natalie, I'd have went OMG.. Al's no pushover after all... who wants Cris?... take me now Al!
Now, if Natalie had responded THAT way.. THEN he'd be into it. Todd, on the other hand, only enjoyed inflicting pain. There's a big difference... though Todd has turned a corner these days..
Char
Ladyeevil Keeper of the Wing at St. Anne's for the Nuts for Nathaniel
DNMF#2
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Posts: 542
(10/13/03 7:22 pm) Reply
Al sexist in my fan fic
Quote:"Al Heaven": Chapter One, his taking up with Tasha and boning her so everyone could hear (I probably would not have so much of a problem if I was Tasha.But I am not, so this one could just be jealousy.)Constantly calling women "chicks." Al Heaven": Chapter Fifteen where Will talks to Al about relationships, Al wreaks of sexism and piggy frat boy mentality through that whole story.
I went back and read it... Some of it I intended, and will discuss... however... I really didn't intend for it too be so riddled with "chick" that he appears to not be Al anymore. Its that I use the word in RL... wow.. I knew that I wasn't interested in spending time editing my work, because I'd never get it written... its just off the top of my head, but that was certainly not what I was going for. I mean, the young guy wrestling with these notions, but not frat boy, but maybe someone who'd go to a frat party if he wasn't with Marcie, and certainly not piggy... just "chick" enough to expose the way a man can be when women aren't around... not some extreme where Al isn't Al anymore. The whole thing is about Al, and I trusted my love for Al enough to not accidently do somethign like that.
I was going for the juxtoposition of Al and Will... Al who keeps his issues separate. I wonder about men who, on one hand, are capable of great relationships with women, yet have desires that they have to bottle up, or keep separate in secret places inside themselves, or only share that attitude "with the guys". You see, I don't think there's a man alive who doesn't wrestle with this age old question, who they are in front of women, and who they are when they arent there. Women too for that matter. I see Al being so wonderful with Marcie, but if Al existed in real life..hmm.. lets just say I don't buy it. Will is there, as a contrast... to be more open about his needs, because I think ultimately, Will respects women more, by being with the ones he can trust with reality. I give mountains of credit to Al though, and I wanted to delve into it... because in Al's case, he could be open with Marcie, but these two lovebirds are youngins... sex isn't something you can be open about so early in life and wihtout ample foundation in their relationshhip for trust, and what not. But I am convinced sex is far more important than some women (and men) would like to believe... and I think its about that trust... being open with each other. I wanted to explore this more in my fan fiction, but all these twists with NM's departure issues.. I can't win.. I keep having to switch gears.
Calling a woman chick, and stuff like that.. hmm.... I dunno.. I guess I'm not PC.. I get on the phone with friends, and I'm all.. hea chick! I am the sort of girl that men can be open with, without fear of judgement... I think its because I like them so much, I studied them enough to understand them and empathize... I like them just the way they are.. probably why men like me.. I could talk about some things many women would find distasteful in a cool matter of fact tone, that would freeze even the most open minded person. Course, it depends on what kind of tone I'm going for in a conversation.
Did you notice anything else? Too late to edit it now.. but
Char
Edited by: Ladyeevil at: 10/13/03 8:02 pm
Ladyeevil Keeper of the Wing at St. Anne's for the Nuts for Nathaniel
DNMF#2
Smitten Kitten
Posts: 543
(10/13/03 10:31 pm) Reply
NM's sense of style..
When I saw that man STRUT over to his booth, looking like THAT, I about FAINTED... looking that hot, in that suit.. that hat... I never saw anything more beautiful in my ENTIRE LIFE. He is my idea of the most amazing man in the world... intensity, style, charisma, looks, charm, intelligence, humor, fascinating.. wicked, absolutely and positively WICKED. I wanted to break out my Offspring CD and start "Original Prankster", before or after I fell to my knees in worship. I'm sorry, but all other men fall FAR behind this one... he's something else... something I doubt exists on any level in this universe.
And NOT ONE of the other actors or actresses could compare.. he's just the coolest cat I've ever met in my LIFE. His expressions. His laugh. Now if only a man like him existed OUTSIDE THE REALM of celebrity, I'd never come up for air.
Char
Ladyeevil Keeper of the Wing at St. Anne's for the Nuts for Nathaniel
DNMF#2
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Posts: 544
(10/13/03 10:47 pm) Reply
Re: Well wait...
Quote:now you've brought a new perspective into the mix. Are you saying that b4 Al tried to intimidate/manipulate Nat w/ his body and size that she tried a little seduction? Hmmm, he never struck me as the type to be swayed that way. Even b4 Marcie. I don't think Jen would have gotten away with all that if he hadn't had true feelings for her. He doesn't strike me as the type to follow his johnson. Interesting.
No, I agree with you. I think Al though Natalie tried to manipulate Al... Al might not have been interested because he was too hung up on Jen, but Natalie did give an impression that he mattered to her... and when Al finds out she didn't give a flying hoot about his feelings by carign more about Cris.. that would irritate a man like Al. Al doesn't take kindly to manipulations, even though he did it himself.. that was the only reason I got into Al and Jen. I thought.. hmmm.. wait till he realizes who Jen is... she'll match him.. manipulate the daylights out of him, and I can imagine the explosions.. but it would have been hot if Jen actually did want him at some point aftter she wass over Cristian.. but she did so much wrong that he wasn't interested... its Gone with the Wind part duh, but its always gonna be about the scoundrel and the manipulative coquette... always will be... something about devilish women who like to make their devils purr only after pushing all their buttons... when other women would run screaming that the same man is not fit for human society, let alone a relationship... you can call it sick.. or you can call it hot... all depends on how you look at it I'm afraid.
Char
katjam007 Registered User
Posts: 13
(10/14/03 1:04 am) Reply
Al vs. reality
Quote:I see Al being so wonderful with Marcie, but if Al existed in real life..hmm.. lets just say I don't buy it.
Al doesn't and never will exist in real life. He's too perfect, in this current incarnation. But that's cool, because this s/l feeds the fantasy of having the perfect man, the one who says and does all the right things. Its the same with romance novel heroes (sorry to keep comparing to romance novels, but I see so many similarities). These heroes always end up perfect. They start out flawed, but by the end of the story they get their act together and we fall in love with them, like the heroines do. Same with Al, he was seriously flawed until his encounter with Marcie. Now we'll probably see more flaws, hopefully, so we'll have a richer character. Still, we won't lose the element of romance that Al/NM brings. NM can play romantic to the hilt, which is so awesome. He doesn't seem a bit uncomfortable with all the touchy-feely stuff and saying I love you to Marcie over and over...it always seems to come from the heart. Excellent acting.
Re:chemistry- I think a lot of it has to do with the caliber of acting. I didn't see the movie Gigli, but supposedly Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez were as chemistry-free a couple as you can get. Yet we all know about their relationship. So imo KB/NM manufacture that chemistry together, because they are such dynamic actors. It probably also helps that they like and respect each other in r/l.
Re: chicks--I say chick all the time. I think its different when women use the term as opposed to men. This is especially true when reading dialogue, having a man call a woman a chick can be construed as derogatory. So I can see both of your viewpoints on that.
kathy
Ladyeevil Keeper of the Wing at St. Anne's for the Nuts for Nathaniel
DNMF#2
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Posts: 545
(10/14/03 6:02 am) Reply
I never THOUGHT NOR WROTE I think follows johnson
Kathy, you wrote to MSTO5 in agreement, but I agree with MSTO5 too... I don't know what I said or did that gave anyone the impression that I disagree. I think MST05 has great insight too. I only wish someone gave me feedback on my fan fiction sooner, because I'm no writer.. never claimed to be. I just wanted to offer some fan fiction that was different than the usual fare. I asked for feedback.. its too late for me to fix it because its already been read in that context, Al as sexist in it, but my fan fiction is not a view about who Al is on the show, either. While were on the subject.. MSTO5... do you think its mainly chap 15, or is the whole body of work stuck in this impression? I'm wondering if I should just take it down, or write a disclaimer, because its so pointless if that's how Al comes off, and its pointless to rewrite because everyone read it already.
Anyway, I got the impression that you guys think I think that's what Al's about because:
Quote:I didn't get the impression Al followed his johnson either. With him he seems to connect with the heart first. I didn't see the scenes with him in love with Jen, but she must have given him some impression that she cared about him. And I guess at that point in time he needed someone to care. It's what drew him to Marcie, she cared about him, and he could see she cared about everyone else. The person she cares least about is herself, the total opposite of Jen. I think that's what most women want, is a man to connect with her heart, to love her from the inside out.
I was talking about that ASPECT of their relationship, as in... how she works in that department too, not why they are together. Check the context of what I said... I'm copying it here:
Quote:Yeah, the writing and the acting came together for this so well... Al wanted to protect his mother who needed him.. that must have been gratifying.. he saw in Jen... a petite, kick butt chick... must have seemed familiar.. that's the esxtent of the writing... but what did Al get out of this? NM brought this... a place in the world. He didn't get that from Jen, and I understand how he thought that he knew better than her.. she DID need him... hence my fan fiction... but so did Marcie... and Marcie? This chick is cooler than cool... I can SO see a guy like Al going.. "who needs Jen.. when there's this cool chick who might be into me" Probably a better time in the sack too... heh heh.. so as for whats going on down there.. I think Marcie appeals on that level too... Al is no Todd.. it aint about getting off on intimidating women... no.. that's for putting them in their place, rightly deserved... not for sexual enjoyment...
I talk about him wanted to be needed, not chasing his johnson... but sex does come into play, it always does, in fiction and rl... I could go up to Al, get to know him, and fulfill his need to be needed, but he might look at me and go "don't feel it babe" <---- sexist comment, lol. I know I have a rep, but I hope you don't think this is all I'm about... I'm not into 8 minute dating either... OMG... I'm more like Will.. I don't separate these things as much as I'm reading that some of you do.
Edited by: Ladyeevil at: 10/14/03 6:39 am
katjam007 Registered User
Posts: 14
(10/14/03 10:20 am) Reply
Re: Were here, celebrating Al's return... snark discussion..
No, Char, I don't think that's what your all about. My comment was more general, just adding on to what MsT said. But actually I really liked what you said about Al getting into Marcie physically too, because that's a huge part of romantic relationships. And its what makes Al so cool as a character...he had the "perfect" woman physically, but ultimately he went for heart over body. And in the end he got everything he desired, because as he's said many times, Marcie's beautiful, he loves her just the way she is, and she's the woman he WANTS, both emotionally and sexually.
Just gotta love Al, and NM for bringing such beautiful realism to the character.
kathy
katjam007 Registered User
Posts: 15
(10/14/03 7:52 am) Reply
Re: Were here, celebrating Al's return... snark discussion..
how do I get that tripod thing off the screen? grrr...
Edited by: Ladyeevil at: 10/15/03 10:26 pm
A couple of things...
When I talked about not thinking Al followed his johnson, it was in response to the idea that Nat tried to use her sexuality to get his attention. Not becuz u suggested it at any point.
I'd have to re-read the fan fic to see if it was throughout the stories. I just know those were the ones that struck me. I would not suggest re-writing or taking them down either. Part of the fun of fanfic is the writer's own personal character interpretation and storylines.
I'd also like to point out that Al didn't have to "get into" Marcie physically. Her weight was her issue and was sometime exploited by others to make her feel like crap. He never hada problem w/ it. I think when Marcie or fans buy into this ideal woman it is what we have been told thru media and other people in our lives buy into and we sell it to each other. Who said Al liked Marcie's personality 1st and then became physically attracted to her? I think everyone assumed that. In any scenes I saw w/ them I never saw where he was disgusted or found her to be undesirable physically. Maybe he always thought she was cute, but they couldn't stand each other behind their Jen infatuations.
katjam007 Registered User
Posts: 16
(10/14/03 6:40 pm) Reply
Re: A couple of things...
I said that, I think, about Marcie's personality. But you're right, MsT. There's not a single scene where Al says anything or gives any inclination that he's not attracted to her physically, even during early snark. Point well taken, and it amps up my admiration for the character even more (as if that was possible). I hadn't really thought about it that way. A couple of other characters have made it an issue (Rex, Brad) but never Al. Too cool.
Keeper of the Wing at St. Anne's for the Nuts for Nathaniel
DNMF#2
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Posts: 546
(10/14/03 7:30 pm) Reply
Re: Al vs. reality
Kathy...
I agree with everything you said here... makes SO much sense! I wouldnt' know these things. I mean, I can hold my own in criticism class, but I don't think I realized how much an effect I can create by trying to write male characters. I am intrigued by it, and even joke in my fan fiction about how a woman must be writing them...
I do love Marcal, and maybe its that romance novel appeal. I'm one of those women who think that men's POV are so pervasive in society that such things dont' get enough respect. I'm not saying romance novels are worthy of critical acclaim (in general), but should be on the same level as sports... I love Al being that guy we dream of that does't really exist. I guess I"m trying to be too realistic... and allowing myself to just kick back and enjoy the journey would be so much more gratifying, so reading what you say does free me.
I'm glad you agree that chemistry is about caliber of acting. I could write volumes about how Al and Jen didn't click because of JM's acting. Excellent example of Benifer.. I love the DP's but.. they couldn't pull it off on screen.. you think its James or Kassie? I hate myself to even ask it, but it always made me wonder... or do you think its the exception.. rabid T&B fans who wouldn't allow the chemistry to take hold?
As for chicks.. yeah, I guess its like a black person calling another black person "nigga", but if a white person did it... yikes! Im going to look at my faux pas as another example of why this story about hate is a good choice on the part of Michael Malone. I just love that man... He knows how to tell a story. I know that Marcal will tell more stories about good versus evil, and I hope its written well.. like "Native Son" if you are familiar, and not tired over the top generalized stuff about hate... but as real as me loving the character of Al and not intending to make him sexist... I don't know if you get that... hope you do.
Char
Ladyeevil Keeper of the Wing at St. Anne's for the Nuts for Nathaniel
DNMF#2
Smitten Kitten
Posts: 547
(10/14/03 7:37 pm) Reply
Re: Were here, celebrating Al's return... snark discussion..
Quote:Just gotta love Al, and NM for bringing such beautiful realism to the character.
THAT is what makes him so special. I mean, come on... what other actor would have made it so real? I know there are some who could, but its rare.. like NM, and THAT is a primary reason I'm SUCH a fan. YOu can write a hero of a guy all day... but it was NM that made us want to be part of it (and KB, I really should hang at her site too)... Al wanted more, and Al RECOGNIZED it in Marcie... to dovetail that desire to want "more from life" as I talked about.. and too SEE it and act on it.. makes us all believe that life has something better in store if we are real, and maybe that has more to do with the inspiration I found to take steps to change my life... Hope is something you can't bottle or sell... hope KB and NM know how much they reach their audience.
Re: A couple of things...
Katjam, I have felt the need to bring this up for awhile. I notice that even at the Diner. People talk about Al seeing past her outside to the real Marcie and things like that. It also surprises me that people keep talking about KB being a real-size woman so people can relate to her. I know that is part of what I like about her, but to be honest I think people relate more to her insecurity than to how she looks. Cuz I think we know in real life she is cute and sexy. Because I can name a few actresses who were popular in the past and nowhere near a size 2. like the actress, Adrienne something who was 1st on GL as Beth and then Another World as Paulina. She was never a stick ever. Fans loved Patrika Darbo and she had a sexy husband and lifestyle. You couldn't tell her she wasn't hot s%$#. So if these women were not size 2 or even 8. It makes u wonder why the fuss over KB(not including her fabulous voice and acting skills)? And from some of the responses I've read on the board and how i sometimes feel about myself I believe it is bcuz they relate to how ashamed she was of her body and inability to stay on a diet.
Char, I think the good thing about someone seeing you at your rock bottom worst is that there is no where to go but up. That is why Al was finally able to let it go w/ Marcie. Could he be any worst than a junkie?
So I am finding youto have a lot of edge and that is ok. I prefer honesty and openess in all my interactions, so please, feel free.
Kat, is right slang terms for women coming from a man's mouth take a different meaning than coming from another woman. Also, I have to take issue, Char, w/ men's nicknames 4 women being on the level of a white person calling a black person "nigga." While both can be extremely offensive. I'd argue that "nigga" packs an explosive and violent punch far more than "chick" or even "bitch." And Char I wasn't implying that your fanfic or you made it seem like Al was a booty chaser exteme. I was just saying that if Nat ever tried to use sex to manipulate him , it seemed pointless, bcuz he doesn't follow his lil man.
I'd like to know who acts like sex isn't important in a relationship??Or r we just supposed to pretend that it doesn't? I missed that lesson. Most certainly no soap couple doesn't have sex. Hell, even Carlotta got some a couple of years ago with Hank. I'm basically saying that Al is not led around by his majik stick. Of course it is important. He is not dead. and really even Marcie, scared as she was, she would've brought it up pretty soon herself, even if Al didn't. Cuz how can u have a hottie like that and not want to go at it?Anyway, I think he handled broaching the making love topic a lot nicer than most guys would have. Hence, the perfect man moniker. He is truly the most admirable ficticious man I've ever seen.
Ladyeevil Keeper of the Wing at St. Anne's for the Nuts for Nathaniel
DNMF#2
Smitten Kitten
Posts: 553
(10/15/03 7:18 pm) Reply
Re: A couple of things...
Quote:I'd also like to point out that Al didn't have to "get into" Marcie physically.
I'm not sure I follow.... Again, it may be that I'm not separating issues. I mean it in the same way that he'd get attracted to any woman.
Char
Ladyeevil Keeper of the Wing at St. Anne's for the Nuts for Nathaniel
DNMF#2
Smitten Kitten
Posts: 555
(10/15/03 7:23 pm) Reply
tripod thing...
you didn't put that picture in your ezboard account?
Ladyeevil Keeper of the Wing at St. Anne's for the Nuts for Nathaniel
DNMF#2
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Posts: 556
(10/15/03 7:26 pm) Reply
Re: A couple of things...
Quote:When I talked about not thinking Al followed his johnson, it was in response to the idea that Nat tried to use her sexuality to get his attention. Not becuz u suggested it at any point.
Oh, sorry.. I got the impression you were trying to tell me that you feel that way as opposed to something I said..
Ladyeevil Keeper of the Wing at St. Anne's for the Nuts for Nathaniel
DNMF#2
Smitten Kitten
Posts: 557
(10/15/03 7:34 pm) Reply
Re: A couple of things...
Quote:to be honest I think people relate more to her insecurity than to how she looks. Cuz I think we know in real life she is cute and sexy
As a matter of fact, when I was against the couple (I am ashamed, but I was)... I used to say.. she needs to lose that ridiculous voice and put on a hot frock. I said, its not about her weight, but I had a hard time understanding why a guy like Al would be turned on by a mousy girl who has no self confidence. I think she was changed into a sexier woman by her comign to know Al as much as Al was changed by her... not that she had to become the femme fatale that I had in mind for Al..
I have a friend who gets ill watching Al and Marcie, saying "That man is too beautiful. They don't match. It would be one thing to find out Al gets into bigger women... and say something like... hea baby, I love a woman with some meat on her, let's get it on.. something like that.." And here it comes up again, the idea of not matching, not because of the weight... Sorry for the extreme example, but I'm happy that people can be honest with me, because its just how they feel.
My comment was more general, just adding on to what MsT said. But actually I really liked what you said about Al getting into Marcie physically too, because that's a huge part of romantic relationships. And its what makes Al so cool as a character...he had the "perfect" woman physically, but ultimately he went for heart over body. And in the end he got everything he desired, because as he's said many times, Marcie's beautiful, he loves her just the way she is, and she's the woman he WANTS, both emotionally and sexually. 
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