Demon's Got You (Rant 11/15)
Just because I love mulling this stuff over at 3 am...
About the physical world: The question of does it exist? I have no doubt it does, I believe we could not be a part of a dream, or our own imagination, because of one thing. If you watch any human interaction as a third person, especially between two people who are interested in each other, the scene is wrought with such chaos and uncertainty, knowing it could go a million different ways, because each of them is thinking for themselves, and it doesn't always end up correctly. I saw a short scene on this recently, where two people in a coffee shop flirted and engage each other in conversation, while going back, and back, and back in the conversation until they got it right to mutual satisfaction, and they hooked up. The original conversation would have sent the two off with noses high and hearts stoned. I think this confirms reality, that uncertainty of the presence of mind to think, to assume others think, and that creates the chaos. If order were present, it might well be a dream.
I have no concept of this spiritual authority, if TDC could expand on it a little, maybe I could comment on it.
Loving others: Enmity is sown deep in our world and cultural system these days, just looking the passerby in the eyes and smiling is generally not accepted anymore. But anybody in the service industry knows how hard it is to be kind when others show no consideration for you whatsoever. I'm sure TDC's had experience with this, but there will always be some customers that will leave you with biting thoughts running through your head while you keep a smile on your face. It's a challenge at times, but ultimately the kindness and consideration is what makes people come back, makes them comfortable, and makes them smile back. And I just lost my point somewhere in there... To recover: Make the best of what you can, and stifle the hate when encountered with Faustuous types, it only empowers them.
Now just to pose a fun question in closing: What is the nature of a human?
- Drgn
Daakar Registered User
Posts: 1
(11/15/01 8:50 am) Reply
Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely can
About physical world: I have heard, seen and talked about many different point of views. Some are solipsist, meanijng they think the universe is their creation and that only they truly exsist, that existense is limited to what this personne can experience and that anything beyond this personnes scope of understanding is non-existant, and anything is made to corespond to this persaonnes unconsious expectations. Another is the usual religious theories that one superior entety as created all and continues to decide of what apens and does not.(sorry i dont get much more into this but it seems so common evryone knows this one). Next is the fake world ideologie that spawns from the tough "Our senses can be fooled at any time. So how can we be shure they are not fooled at all times." This way of thinking gave birth to movies like the matrix. It is a belief that hold that our world is not real and that in realety we are being fooled into thinking that it is. Not necesarely by machins mind you, but by an unknown entity. There is of course the one most acepted that our world exsists. that it is made of particles caled atoms and that we exist in it as phisical beings, well you know what anybody automaticaly assums when they dont take time to think about it. Its probably true but you never know.
On spiritual authority: This one is triky. My personal belief is that there is no thinking or self aware greater authority. rather there are sets of rules and lines that the univers goes by and never goews out of is way from. a sort of greater order in the chaos. like fractals. other think that there is a god like TDC im betting. In fact many believe in a god, wich pauses me a probleme either they are all pushed into this beliefe by religion or some experience that they think is of divine sort, but what bothers me is that so many can hardly be wrong, yet no proof of anything divine as ever been found, anyway. Other belive that a force, like a mix of godly force but whit the unthinking ways of laws and guidlines. Some sort of universal spirit that would bring life and chaos to what needs it but breed law and order into all that needs to be stable. Wich is right is not my place to say but of course my hown world veiw makes more sense to me than that of others hehe.
On loving others: Well since im a bit partialist to Solipsism and have been treated awfull by most of those i have encontered in my life, the feelings of others mater only litle to me. This must seem awfully cold harted but taking my world view into acount its a bit normal. All is governed by laws, and one of them is that the nature of humans is to be violent/predators its wired into us, some can rise above it but most stay at that basic level. second no one realy exists altho i like their compagny, they are not real and as such i am not obligated to be nice or to spare someones feeling. i will of course as long as they return it i will not show compasion for those that do show it themselves they do not deserve it.
On human nature: well Solipsist will say that any human other than themself is creation of their hown mind something they could have been add they not been themself, and that they are representation of thoughs that they would not dare to think consiouly themselves. Believers will say that Humans are creations of the divine and their nature is limited to what this divine intended for them. this applys to any religion be it christian or greek. Realist and/or scientist will tell you that human is no more than a biological creature whit chemical reactions and nevous connection in its brain complex enough for it to be self-aware. of course to a true scientist the existense of a soul is out of the question, but few are as cold as that most still wish to belive that they are more than complex chimical reactions. To those who belive we are being fooled into thinking our world is real, other humans are either being fooled themselves or are fakes.(tho even real humans can be fakes, thats another mater.) no need to mension that these are somewhat paranoid as well. again our belife are tempered by our world veiw and it shall alway be this way it is the nature of humans, and if i let myself go to solipsism it so because it is in my nature.
P.S.: Dont be mistaken im not a solipsist, not a full one anyway i still cant bring myself to truly belive that all others are nothing but things i imagined. im more of a realist whit solipsist toughs.
Well that was a long exposay hopew more will give their opinion here.
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
I have a hard time accepting Solipsism mainly because other people continue to surprise me. I haven't studied the idea much, but the ideas presented were very simliar to those presented by the guy I was talking with the other day.
I'd like to throw another idea into the mix, if I could. I just got done re-reading Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert A. Heinlein. In it, he presents the idea that anything which "groks" (i.e., understands, thinks, etc.) is God. So the translation is simply Thou art God. What do you think of that idea? If you have read the book, you can see that it fits in with many different belief systems.
The Christian concept of God in Christ in you could eventually work its way to Thou art God. It's something I've been contemplating for a while now, but haven't yet grokked in fullness. I had some other ideas to discuss, but they've escaped me for the moment.
A thought: should I make a seperate forum for discussions about rants and philosophy?
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Posts: 17
(11/15/01 8:01 pm) Reply
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
I have a rant too, not really about the same stuff here, but about the Mega Man X series. Well, it's not mine, it's Xardion's, you can find it at
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
Well said. But I disagree with the X5 section... only in part. I liked the game, but the storyline was indeed atrocious. It did add some unique ideas though, some new armors, ducking (!!!) and it gave some neat options as far as timing goes. Plus is shows Zero in that sweet demi-god pose if you let eurasia crash... But besides that, I more or less agree. Capcom has it all or nothing on X6. If it sucks, the X series is toast.
Yes, there is a God. And he listens to techno.
- TheDarkChristian, light of the world
Daakar Registered User
Posts: 2
(11/16/01 10:48 am) Reply
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
A forum on philosophy might be good tho once all is said and done philosophy almost ends in a stalmate as no one can prove, or refute the other unless you are a great adept at it.
On Chaos in others: True i am suprised by others sometimes. but never to great extents. A litle quirk or something they said but never capital changes in personality or the proverbial 180 as they say. so thats not my main conserne what bugs me about others is on the contrary their predictability. most of the time i can guess what someone is gona do or say even if i barely know them.
P.S.: If you do put up that forum for high flying intelectual debats one of the subjects that i think is very interesting is Time past and present and if/how does destiny affects it. Im thinking about that alot since i just finished Soul reaver 2 wich deals whit these things.
Edited by: Daakar at: 11/16/01 10:52:07 am
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Posts: 2
(11/16/01 10:39 pm) Reply
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
Time is something I'm short of lately, but maybe I wouldn't be if I actually stopped staring at the computer screen for a good couple of hours. Anyhow, I don't have time to continue the thread at the moment, just adding in that a forum to discuss this great schtuph with (or at least a dedicated thread) would is a nice idea, but is there enough base for it?
Lates.
- Drgn
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
That's what I was wondering. But I have a tendency to move ahead of time. I made this forum long before it was necessary to do so. And honestly, the most active topics are the ones about the rants anyway.
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Posts: 20
(11/22/01 4:32 pm) Reply
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
I, like TDC, am Christian, and therefore you will probably find my views inclining towards religion. However, I do believe that God created the universe and then let it be on its own. That is to say, I believe that God knows exactly what's going to happen, but He doesn't necessarily interfere unless necessary. That's obviously because He is literally constant: He never changes. And if you know exactly what's going to happen in the future and you can see everything, well then it's like living in the future, past, and present. You would see how that would prove His omniscience, if He could be proven to exist.
And since I believe in Afterlife, and I believe in heaven and hell, I also believe that we, as humans, are more than we think ourselves to be. We have a soul and a spirit (and I defined what I think of those in "We are the Future" in the Misc. forum) and I think that they are what pass on into the afterlife when we die.
Nature of man, says the Bible, is impure. We are of guilty lineage, blood of sacrilege. The sins of the father are pushed down thousands of generations from Adam to us. And therefore, we are redeemed by Christ, who gives us the Path to heaven, with His blood, by dying on the cross. There is no other way but faith, wholehearted faith in him, to get to God. Being a Protestant of no denominations but having beliefs parallel with Baptists and Evangelicals, I believe that Christ is the only one who can interceded for us.
But putting aside all religious beliefs, I agree partly with the theories of Freud (the Id, the Ego, the Superego). Man, when left unchecked by society, will do what benefits him and what he thinks he can get away with. If he can prolong the lie, he will, but if he thinks he can't, he'll confess because it will be better for him in the end.
---Dammit, I have to get off the computer. I'll be back for more later.
"Rules of Brockian Ultra-Cricket
...
RULE ONE: Grow at least six legs. You won't need them, but it keeps the crowds amused. RULE TWO: Find one good Brockian Ultra-Cricket player. Clone him off a few times. This saves an enormous amount of tedious selection and training... RULE FOUR: Throw lots of assorted items of sporting equipment over the wall for the players... RULE FIVE: The players should not lay about themselves for all they are worth and whatever they find to hand. Whenever a player scores a 'hit' on another player, he should immediately run away and apologize from a safe distance... RULE SIX: The winning team shall be the first that wins."
-From Life, The Universe, and Everything, Douglas Adams
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Posts: 52
(11/22/01 9:22 pm) Reply
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
I am non-religious, but I do believe in fate. I belive that everything is planned out, we can't ACTUALLY choose what we do, it's pre-determined. We do have the choise to say 'yes' or 'no' to a question, but what we will do is already decided.
I think that after your life is over, you are gone, that's it, nothing happens. You just 'dissapear'.
Please don't start getting into the details of this, 90% of my family (Grandparents, cousins, uncles etc included) is Christian, and I know more than the average person about this religion.
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
*chuckle* But that's half the fun. And if you didn't want us to discuss it, why'd you put it on a message board?
I raise this counter-argument: if there is indeed fate, and it is decided before time, who decided it? How did it come to be? If the universe came to be on its own, then we would have the ability to change it at will, no?
Also, for those who remember it (Jeffe and... um... Remmie, if he decides to show back up, I guess. Maybe Kim): Should I just reopen the Futurian Domain and send philosophy discussions there?
By having control over others, one creates the illusion that one is also in control of himself.
- Gray Mage Jeffe
Edited by: TheDarkChristian at: 11/22/01 10:47:03 pm
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Posts: 21
(11/23/01 4:45 pm) Reply
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
I was wondering what the hell happened to that place. You could re-open it, invite Gregoriah, Ann, David, and some other people... and link from here for philosophy debates. Futurian 57 lives again!
(And sorry if that thing about my beliefs kinda irritated you or whatnot. None was intended.)
"Rules of Brockian Ultra-Cricket
...
RULE ONE: Grow at least six legs. You won't need them, but it keeps the crowds amused. RULE TWO: Find one good Brockian Ultra-Cricket player. Clone him off a few times. This saves an enormous amount of tedious selection and training... RULE FOUR: Throw lots of assorted items of sporting equipment over the wall for the players... RULE FIVE: The players should not lay about themselves for all they are worth and whatever they find to hand. Whenever a player scores a 'hit' on another player, he should immediately run away and apologize from a safe distance... RULE SIX: The winning team shall be the first that wins."
-From Life, The Universe, and Everything, Douglas Adams
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Posts: 58
(11/23/01 7:34 pm) Reply
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
Well, TDC, to awnser your questions,
WHO DECIDED FATE?
Nobody 'decided' fate. It was simply 'made'. Everything that will happen, will happen. We can do nothing about it.
<b>To me, my fate theory helps me get through hard times. Just because I believe that it happened for a reason, or maybe no reason at all. There's nothing that could have been done to prevent it.</b>
IF THE UNIVERSE CAME TO BE ON IT'S OWN, THEN WE WOULD HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHANGE IT AT WILL, NO?
We think we can change it, but we can't. Simply put, no matter what we do, it was planned. We can't change what we will do, it is already 'happened', we can though, make our own choises. These choises are pre-determined though.
I'm not too sure if that makes sence, but I did my best. I also have a thory on time travel, but it's VERY complicated, or at least, that's what people think. Just say if you want to hear it.
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Posts: 22
(11/24/01 1:39 am) Reply
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
Sure, I'd like to hear it. Then I'll tell you about mine.
"Rules of Brockian Ultra-Cricket
...
RULE ONE: Grow at least six legs. You won't need them, but it keeps the crowds amused. RULE TWO: Find one good Brockian Ultra-Cricket player. Clone him off a few times. This saves an enormous amount of tedious selection and training... RULE FOUR: Throw lots of assorted items of sporting equipment over the wall for the players... RULE FIVE: The players should not lay about themselves for all they are worth and whatever they find to hand. Whenever a player scores a 'hit' on another player, he should immediately run away and apologize from a safe distance... RULE SIX: The winning team shall be the first that wins."
-From Life, The Universe, and Everything, Douglas Adams
Daakar Registered User
Posts: 3
(11/24/01 11:46 am) Reply
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
When it comes to fate i believe that things are already set in stone we canot change it simply because time is to powerfull a force to counteract. If you trow a stone in a river it flows on as if the obstruction was never there, and compared to history, past or future, we arent even grains of sand. The past is set and since we are the past of the future our actions are predertemined.
But when it comes to time things get complicated fast. by that i mean if only our moment in time existes then not only are we more likly to have free will but timew travel becomes a ludicrus idea. If time exists up to our moment but not after that then our chance of free will deminish but the idea of time travel becomes more possible, tho you still could not change curent event in the past as whatever you could do in the past you already did(if you dont follow that ill try to re-explaine). Ok now if all of time already existes then free will is next to imposible as our action are already history for those after us and even if one from the future where to come to tell us, time/history would already have taken that into acount.(is this making sens sometimes i weird myself out whit these things.)
about that "IF THE UNIVERSE CAME TO BE ON IT'S OWN, THEN WE WOULD HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHANGE IT AT WILL, NO?" first i believe the univers dint come into exsistence but neither was it created it simply exists, as it as always been and as it shall alway whit no begining or end. it is the universe, why should it begin or end.
As Kain from soulreaver 2 would say "History abhors a paradox"
BTW i strongly sugest evryone to play the entire legacy of kain series, more so if you like time paradox and destiny twists.
Edited by: Daakar at: 11/24/01 11:55:02 am
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Posts: 60
(11/24/01 3:39 pm) Reply
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
Ok, I'm going to try to explain this the best I can, using examples so that we can understand.
If we travelled back in time, and say, killed somebody, then time would go on like he was killed. Then we get to the moment in time where you would have travelled back in time to kill that person, but since he's dead, nobody travelles back in time, so time goes back to normal. Then the person goes back, and so on and so forth, and time in in an endless spiral.
IF YOU DIDN'T GET THAT TELL ME, I'LL EXPLAIN AGAIN
As for if we travelled into the future and got a lazer beam or something, time would not be disrupted. This is because it couldn't change anything in the fact that in the future you stole the lazer beam from would be on the timeline of 'reality'.
This means that the future you went into was created because you went into it, and when you get to the moment in time where you appeared in the future, it would just be 'another event' in history.
THAT PROLLY DIDN'T MAKE SENCE EITHER
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
The second idea made more sense than the first, i.e. it was more easiliy understood. Interesting ideas, both.
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Posts: 61
(11/25/01 12:36 am) Reply
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
Yeah, I thought they didn't make much sence. THe first one is hard to explain, even with examples and the 2nd is a little easier.
EX: Ever watch back to the future2? When they come back from the future, everything is changed, but it shouldn't be like that. And in BttF1, when they go back to the present, EVERYTHING should change, nnot just a few things.
Re: Demon's Got You (Rant 11/15)
Oi, Time travel, there's nothing better to weird a person out with than a discussion of time travel.
I think Xeerow is taking a variant of what is called the "Grandfather Clause", in which, if you went back in time and killed your grandfather, then time would go on with that change, but you would cease to exist, therefore you were never able to go back in time to kill your grandfather, and thus, time would straighten itself back out again. It becomes a self perpetuated time loop, in which the past is constantly shifted and reconstructed. So even if you attempted to change the past, it would only exist for an amount of time, before it was righted again.
If anyone's ever mucked around boards for games such as chrono trigger and cross, then the discussions get really thick, twisted, and in general become like so much untended yarn in front of a kitten. The scene in Chrono cross where Marle becomes her ancestor for a brief period, but continues to exist, would be impossible because of the grandfather clause. To go against this, some people brought up the idea of temporal intertia. Temporal inertia states that any change to the timestream in the past, would not become evident until it had established itself in the present. So Marle becoming her ancestor made her cease to exist. But because time was rewriting history so that she wouldn't exist, it took some time before she was wiped out. Another advert of the idea is that the mere force generated by any such change, would create a rip enough of a tear, to delay the effect of the change.
But again, because it's a time loop, any change made to the past would be immediatly felt by the traveler, as he has come from the present into the past.
Changing events the changing a single moment in time, scenes likes Crono's death, or the final scene in Tomb Raider, would also be nigh impossible. Tomb Raider got closer though, when you see Lara struggling against the force required to turn the knife. (I apologize to those who haven't seen the movie, or played Crono Trigger, as they will have no idea what I'm talking about). Time exists as a dimension, so to move anything through this dimension, or affect it at a single point, would require an amount of force. To affect anything in the third dimension requires force, or movement. To take an object frozen in time, and move it elsewhere, would be to either completely ignore the forth dimension, or to alter it as if pushing a box across the ground. Everything is relative with this situation though. If you could freeze a moment in time, how could you move within it? You have to exist outside of time to do so. If you could move an object in a moment of time, then it also becomes outside of time for the period which you are moving it, so for that instant in which you are affecting it, it would, for the most part, cease to exist in reality. As a being of the forth dimension, trying to affect a single instance of the past, the force to move an object, any object, would be beyond an unaided humans capaciity. This goes back to the temporal intertia, and time loop theories, as what you have done, has either already been accounted for, or corrected, so to change it, you would have to go against the temporal inertia, an that would require an unknown amount of force.
It's all just theories though, and now my head hurts and I'm hungry, so I'm going to jet off for food and let this post.
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Posts: 23
(11/25/01 7:29 am) Reply
Re: Demon's Got You (Rant 11/15)
*thinks* Yeah, I see how that works. But I've been mulling over a temporal anomaly from one of my games (zelda oracle of ages) in which you retrieve an item from the future, give it to someone in the past, who then passes it down to the one who gave it to you in the future.
So where did the vase come from?
"Rules of Brockian Ultra-Cricket
...
RULE ONE: Grow at least six legs. You won't need them, but it keeps the crowds amused. RULE TWO: Find one good Brockian Ultra-Cricket player. Clone him off a few times. This saves an enormous amount of tedious selection and training... RULE FOUR: Throw lots of assorted items of sporting equipment over the wall for the players... RULE FIVE: The players should not lay about themselves for all they are worth and whatever they find to hand. Whenever a player scores a 'hit' on another player, he should immediately run away and apologize from a safe distance... RULE SIX: The winning team shall be the first that wins."
-From Life, The Universe, and Everything, Douglas Adams
Demon's Got You (Rant 11/15)
Re: Because i love philosophising (spelling???) and rarely c
Futurian 57 lives again! 
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